Let me drop a grenade in the room

[turbolapp]

You proved my point - The law is not racist because it has nothing to do with the claimed superiority or inferiority of a race. Arizona isn't saying the Mexicans shouldn't be allowed in the country because they are inferior, they're saying they should only be allowed to stay if they are legal immigrants, and reserve the right to enforce that law. How is that racist? Once again - you're confusing discrimination with racism. It is clearly discriminatory, but it is not racist.

I still disagree with randomly pulling over Mexicans to check their status, but that part will be overturned the 1st time an American files suit for violation of their 4th amendment rights.

I know it seems you and I keep going round and round so hopefully this will be my last post on this particular topic.

Look at that last definition, "discriminatory based on race" Racial profiling is a procedure that by it's very definition is "discriminatory based on race" therefore it is a racist practice.

 

[bcc423]

"Law makes it a crime to be an illegal immigrant."

Not that I like MSNBC, but I'm pretty sure the meaning of that phrase is "the law turns an immigration offense into a criminal one."

In the context of civil litigation, it would be similar to saying "the law turns a civil matter into a criminal offense." Like with copyright protection for example.

Their choice of words really isn't the best, given that plenty of people are just looking for something to ridicule them for, but nevertheless, the message is not as retarded as it might seem at first.

 

[cryptix]

verklempt.

fuck em - they don't pay taxes, their kids get free lunches and schooling, and free hospital visits.

SEND EM BACK. NO AMNESTY!

 

[dangregory]

An illegal sideswiped my wife's car a few years ago (no can read intersection instructions no habla english.) He was driving a tow truck for a company and conveniently couldn't provide any id for himself or the company that owned the truck. Cop didn't do a fucking thing. The guy was at fault but so what? Dealing with illegals is too much work. My wife tried to get the police report which said something neutral like "information cannot be obtained" about the guy who hit her. Then she tried calling and dealing with the tow truck company personally, but conveniently, their phone was out of service and company staffers couldn't be located. So her insurance paid for the repairs and SHE ended up with points added against her license - because info reported at the scene (by the illegal) was inaccurate or couldn't be obtained.

Fuck them all. You do the crime, you get the hell out of our country.

 

[bcc423]

dangregory, were you present there?

 

[cryptix]

Its funny.. My dad works internationally all over the world. He gets fucked over by crooked airport officials, police, etc. It's either pay their so called fees and fines or get fucked up/sent back home/or worse.

They do not want him in their country. He has been hassled by the Russian mob on a train, he has been questioned by airport police in Port Harcourt Africa, and many other places.

Other countries dont fuck around when it comes to visitors.

Your VISA is up??? GTFO
Your Papers aren't in order??? FINE.FEE.IMPRISONMENT. GTFO
Your Passport looks funny or fake to them??? FINE.FEE.JACKED UP

Other countries dont fuck around when it comes to visitors/immigrants/foreigners - so why do we???!!!

Our police, here in Texas are told to let illegals go. Dont fine them. Release them. ITS FUCKIN BULLSHIT

FUCK THESE CRIMINALS - SEND EM BACK. MOTHERFUCKERS!

 

[Ataraxy]

It's straight up racism, those who think otherwise are kidding themselves and are probably at least partly racist themselves, not to mention ignorant. Yeah I said it, deal with it.

I wouldn't go as far to say it's fascism quite yet, but it most certainly highlights the attitude.

Couple of points, the bill is completely backed by those whom are explicitly racist in Arizona including self identified neo nazis.

"Show me your papers" is a violation of the Fourth amendment, if done without cause. If done on the basis of race, it is a violation of the Fourteenth amendment.

This is all about scared highly conservative white people when it comes down to it. This law creates more problems then solutions.

The irony is that MOST latin american's are PRO immigration reform because they realize the fundamental problem and how it takes jobs away from LEGAL mexican immigrants as well.

If they REALLY wanted to tackle illegal immigration, they would ACTUALLY heavily fine those that hired the illegals. Make it a true financial liability for their business to do such a thing and it will not be done. However, all of those farmers, builders, etc.. would lose out on the big money they make by paying slave wages as well as the leverage they hold over these workers with immigration. All of which would of course trickle down to the populace so that's not going to happen.

Add to that the additional risk of violence that this retarded bill introduces along with the fact that this means these people are going to turn to the fight-or-flight mentality and it's destined for disaster. Not to mention this bill wasn't created with illegals in mind, it was created with illegal hispanics in mind and yes, that's discriminatory and racist you idiots.

The backlash against this isn't irrational or emotionally driven. It's simply an ineffective border-line (no pun intended) illegal policy that is counter productive to the well being of our country.

Also, to the person spouting out how illegal aliens pay no income tax, neither do 40% of LEGAL American's you fucking jack ass shut the hell up.

Fuck Arizona's government and any of you sheeple that buy into this shit.

 

[bcc423]

Other countries dont fuck around when it comes to visitors/immigrants/foreigners - so why do we???!!!

Don't you get it? That's what makes the US so great. That's what free (and corruption free) society should be like.

You take great pride in the way the US is, right? Yet, at the same time you want it to follow suit of other countries where things are fucked up? Or do you want it to apply only to aliens?

Well, you can tell you dad that in places you described, shit like that happens not just to the visitors, but to citizens as well. He (and you) might be under the impression that such treatment is only applicable to foreigners, but the same corruption and abuse affects locals just as much (if not more).

It can't be limited only to foreigners. Once you open the floodgates, everything turns to shit.

So what you are advocating for is actually the destruction of what makes this country great, and you don't even realize that you are doing it.

 

[popeye]

Don't you get it? That's what makes the US so great. That's what free (and corruption free) society should be like.

You take great pride in the way the US is, right? Yet, at the same time you want it to follow suit of other countries where things are fucked up? Or do you want it to apply only to aliens?

Well, you can tell you dad that in places you described, shit like that happens not just to the visitors, but to citizens as well. He (and you) might be under the impression that such treatment is only applicable to foreigners, but the same corruption and abuse affects locals just as much (if not more).

It can't be limited only to foreigners. Once you open the floodgates, everything turns to shit.

So what you are advocating for is actually the destruction of what makes this country great, and you don't even realize that you are doing it.

corruption free? We are witness to one of the most corrupt administrations to ever govern. It makes Nixon look like childs play. The only difference is the media went after Nixon and they cover up and shut up about these crooks.

 

[dangregory]

dangregory, were you present there?

I was driving in my own car a few cars behind her and after the accident I waited with her, the illegal and his tow truck, for the police to arrive. We were pissed that when the guy didn't have proof of ANYTHING (not even insurance for the commercial tow truck he was driving for his employer; not even a driver's license) instead of the cop giving him a hard time, he sort of shrugged and said "What can you do?" to us privately. When we asked who was at fault, he said obviously the tow truck guy. He said we could get a copy of the police report in a week or two if we called up then. Over the phone they gave us a big brush off and were vague about what ended up on the final report. Then we dealt with my wife's insurance company, who in turn were trying to get info from the police and that bogus report, and we were all trying to track down the tow truck company. Massive idiocy all around. And because an inaccurate or incomplete report was filed (the cop's fault) my wife got docked for it. Bizarro world. We get punished when the illegals do stuff to us because somewhere along the line, Joey Buttafuoco Cop mishandles the whole situation. The illegal should have been arrested then and there, the company should have been fined, all sorts of stuff should have happened. This was in central New Jersey.

 

[bcc423]

Massive idiocy all around.

That's what it sounds like. And it's the reason I asked if you were there.
It seems like the cop fucked up and then the department covered it up.

If it were the standard procedure, then anyone would be able to pretend like they can't speak English and don't have an ID.

So I think your "anger" here is misdirected.

I notice a lot of this actually. People get fucked because the system is fucked. But if a part of the situation happens to involve an illegal alien, then they begin to believe that the illegal status was the root of the problem.

I remember watching a debate on cspan a while back. The debate revolved around a case where an illegal immigrant got drunk, drove a car, and ran over a teenage girl.

The main argument of one of the sides was that if that immigrant wasn't in the country in the first place, then none of that would have happened.

While the argument (in its simplicity) is solid; it's direction is way off. It would have helped in that particular instance, and that one girl would have lived. But it wouldn't solve the problem of drunk driving.

So instead of increasing the number of police checkpoints and/or increasing punitive measures for DUI, that group proposed to increase measures against illegal immigrants.

The irony is that all that money and manpower could be used to deal with drunk driving, but instead it was (proposed) to be used to concentrate on dealing with the immigration.

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

I know it seems you and I keep going round and round so hopefully this will be my last post on this particular topic.

Look at that last definition, "discriminatory based on race" Racial profiling is a procedure that by it's very definition is "discriminatory based on race" therefore it is a racist practice.

Based on your arguments then, the American Medical Association is racist for recommending black males get screened for cardiovascular disease and prostate cancer earlier/more often than white males. Do you really think the fact that the AMA is profiling based on race to determine the probability of health problems makes them racist?

Racial profiling does not always equate to being racist. Remember, I've already said I disagree with them checking ID's on a hunch (4th amendment and abuse of power). Just wanted to weigh in on the racial profiling/racism issue. Most illegals are Hispanics, so it makes perfect sense that they would profile Hispanics. It only becomes racist when they start demanding that the millions of legal Hispanics be arrested/deported etc. If they are differentiating between legal and illegal Hispanics, then by definition it can't be racist. That's the difference between discrimination and racism.

 

[ricdes]

Here in Switzerland even if you're a legal immigrant you're required to have your ID with you at any time given.

If you don't have your imigrant-ID on you when cops ask you to ID yourself, you'll be fined 55 CHF (which is about only $51 nowadays) and depending on the mood of the cops taken to the station to be questioned or they just ask for your details through radio.

Obviously a hassle for legals like myself. Basically I may get fined if I just go out for a round of walking and dont want to risk losing my ID. But since cops in the states have bigger problems I really doubt that they will randomly start pulling out people walking around.

But the thing is: How do you americans expect to keep on paying those extremely low prices for food if those companies suddenly have to pay a lot more for their workforce?...

 

[Ataraxy]

Based on your arguments then, the American Medical Association is racist for recommending black males get screened for cardiovascular disease and prostate cancer earlier/more often than white males. Do you really think the fact that the AMA is profiling based on race to determine the probability of health problems makes them racist?

You are so fucking stupid that it's difficult to quantify it.

Racial profiling does not always equate to being racist.

Context is everything, but I suppose that's lost on you.

 

[bcc423]

corruption free? We are witness to one of the most corrupt administrations to ever govern.

When I mentioned corruption earlier, I specifically stressed "on the street level".

This is the beauty of the American society. Corruption somehow magically stops at some level before reaching the bottom.

Usually, when the top is corrupt, it propagates all the way to the bottom. But in the US, the top is rotten, but at some point on the way down, it stops.

It's a real mystery to me why it stops.

But if the culture of bribery is injected into the US on the street level, then I think it's a real possibility that it will start spreading. That was my original point about bribes.

I think it has a lot to do with mentality. If most cops don't take bribes, that means most civilians won't even consider offering one. And since most civilians won't consider offering one, most cops would actually refuse the bribe and press additional charges for the attempt.

But if mentality changes, and both parties start to think of bribe as not a big deal, then civilians will begin offering them and the cops will begin taking them.

The next point would be the extortion -- when cops would begin to engineer situations which would force civilians to offer bribes.

The next step after that is the general (reluctant) acceptance of the civilians of the fact that cops extort bribes.

The next step is civilians actually realizing the "benefits" of bribing.

Once that happens, there is no going back. The society is fucked.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen. I'm saying it might.

Illegal immigrants caught by police (with the new law) are the perfect candidates to start offering bribes, simply because they got nothing to lose.

They could be the brave pioneers to pave the way into the bright future of bribing

 

[Falian]

Um is someone holding a gun to my head? Cause I would never take that job.

The main problem I see with illegal immigration is not making them legal fast enough. These people come over here to find better jobs and a better life doing the jobs I sure as hell don't want to do. If they're going to work here then they sure as shit need to pay taxes. We do ourselves a ridiculous disservice by trying to fight them because they come over anyways, get paid under the table and then since they're not on the books, have no health insurance. How much money is the US losing because we're too politically afraid to embrace diversity? I say make them legal, and get them on the books, make them pay taxes and be done with it. Plus this would clear up so much bureaucratic crap so that in the rush to become legal the actual people we're wanting to screen for (you know the whole reason we need to secure the borders? "terrorists"? everyone remembers that's supposed to be your argument right? Not keeping out those damn mexicans...) would be much more apparent when trying to weed out the dangerous illegals.

Trust me, I don't have a problem with immigration.

I just wanted to point out that I disagree that racial profiling = racism if there is statistical evidence to support it.

 

[Falian]

When I mentioned corruption earlier, I specifically stressed "on the street level".

This is the beauty of the American society. Corruption somehow magically stops at some level before reaching the bottom.

Usually, when the top is corrupt, it propagates all the way to the bottom. But in the US, the top is rotten, but at some point on the way down, it stops.

It's a real mystery to me why it stops.

But if the culture of bribery is injected into the US on the street level, then I think it's a real possibility that it will start spreading. That was my original point about bribes.

I think it has a lot to do with mentality. If most cops don't take bribes, that means most civilians won't even consider offering one. And since most civilians won't consider offering one, most cops would actually refuse the bribe and press additional charges for the attempt.

But if mentality changes, and both parties start to think of bribe as not a big deal, then civilians will begin offering them and the cops will begin taking them.

The next point would be the extortion -- when cops would begin to engineer situations which would force civilians to offer bribes.

The next step after that is the general (reluctant) acceptance of the civilians of the fact that cops extort bribes.

The next step is civilians actually realizing the "benefits" of bribing.

Once that happens, there is no going back. The society is fucked.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen. I'm saying it might.

Illegal immigrants caught by police (with the new law) are the perfect candidates to start offering bribes, simply because they got nothing to lose.

They could be the brave pioneers to pave the way into the bright future of bribing

What the fuck are you talking about? Do you just talk for the sake of talking?

There has always been corruption at the "bottom" in the United States.

Pick up American Gangster and watch it. Sure it's Hollywooded up, but it's based on a true story. A story unveiling the absurd amount of corruption in the New York Police force.

 

[ly2 from WF]

It's a little fucking late for this now. They should have stopped the immigration 30 years ago when it was becoming a problem. This is just a fucking dog and pony show, there is no fixing what the politicians have created here with illegal immigration.

 

[turbolapp]

You are so fucking stupid that it's difficult to quantify it.

Woah woah keep it civil. It's not stupid, it's a strawman argument. However much a fallacy it may be, it can still persuade the masses.

 

[BeerNuts]

Um is someone holding a gun to my head? Cause I would never take that job.

The main problem I see with illegal immigration is not making them legal fast enough. These people come over here to find better jobs and a better life doing the jobs I sure as hell don't want to do. If they're going to work here then they sure as shit need to pay taxes. We do ourselves a ridiculous disservice by trying to fight them because they come over anyways, get paid under the table and then since they're not on the books, have no health insurance. How much money is the US losing because we're too politically afraid to embrace diversity? I say make them legal, and get them on the books, make them pay taxes and be done with it. Plus this would clear up so much bureaucratic crap so that in the rush to become legal the actual people we're wanting to screen for (you know the whole reason we need to secure the borders? "terrorists"? everyone remembers that's supposed to be your argument right? Not keeping out those damn mexicans...) would be much more apparent when trying to weed out the dangerous illegals.

^ This. Instead of spending millions trying to fight against "illegal" immigrants we should be spending it on programs to make them legal citizens. I highly doubt that the majority of these immigrants want to come over here and get paid under the table under constant threat of deportation. The point is better money and a better life than what they had. Its not to get rich by dodging taxes while getting paid minimum wage or less. Hell I have heard stories of immigrant families that have lived in the US working for 10-15yrs that still get deported leaving their citizen children behind in the US. This is a problem with fear of diversity and change nothing more.