Let me drop a grenade in the room

bcc423 said:
Not really on topic of the new Arizona law, but I don't think there is a single economic theory which proves that illegal immigration hurts the economy.

Some people lose jobs, but overall, the country benefits.

There are plenty of people who've tried to come up with a solid theory to disprove that, but none to (my knowledge) have been able to produce a theory without flaws.

I don't support breaking the immigration law, but the whole debate about "them taking our jobs" doesn't account for the fact that the size of the economy (and more importantly the velocity of money) is increasing because of the illegal migrant workers. That creates a lot more possibilities for everyone else, including the people who got laid off.
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I really doubt that is true. There are lots of companies making record profits but unemployment is high and lots of good people dont have fulltime work.

Oil Companies Record Profits the last few years
Banks Record Profits the last few years.

And if you have ever lived in a place with a high percentage of migrant workers you know the money does not get back into the system very easily. They hoard it, they Western union it to family back home and they are likely to spend it on basics.

I think it is fairly simple to see that if they lose their jobs and get deported, the companies will have to hire legal workers at a reasonable rate, making jobs for the next step up in the system have less cheap applicants, raising the conditions and wages for that level. And on and on up the chain.

Yes some lower paid jobs wages will raise benefits. Costs may go up a bit.

I never thought that the lower under $20 an hour jobs would be at risk from illegal aliens when I was a kid. I mean if you are illegal you leave.

If it is absolutely necessary for some industries they petition some amnesty. And if none is given industries like farming will have to modernize.

Another thing America is good at. Bonus.
 


turbolapp said:
It's racist based on the assumption that the people that will get targeted are the non whites. Therefore racist. If the enforcement agencies intend to card as many whites as they do non whites then it would not be racist (at least in hypothetical implementation)
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Not true. They have pretty good estimates on the number of hispanics here illegally and the number of caucasian non americans here illegally and if they question based on that percentage say it's 95% and 5% then i don't see how you could think it is racist.
 
I'm not a Mexican but ... borders are just illusions, so fuck prejudice laws. Borders are just human made illusions the world is truly one, it's not divided. That's unless man-made laws supposedly say otherwise as such laws are saying in this case. Anyone should be allowed to go anywhere.
 
I really doubt that is true.
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That's the thing. Everyone doubts it, but no one can prove it.

I think it is fairly simple to see that if they lose their jobs and get deported, the companies will have to hire legal workers at a reasonable rate, making jobs for the next step up in the system have less cheap applicants, raising the conditions and wages for that level. And on and on up the chain.
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That's one of the most common flaws.

It's similar to defending the minimum wage. In theory, by increasing the minimum wage, you make the corporations pay out more money to their workers, so the poor improve their living conditions and become better (more capable) consumers.

In practice, increasing minimum wage destroys jobs and increases prices to end consumers.

So if you take away the illegal immigrants, you are in effect introducing an increase in minimum wage. Instead of simply hiring locals at higher wages, a lot of companies simply would reduce their work force all together because they can't pay what the locals want to earn.
And the remainder will jack up their prices to compensate for the increase in labor costs.

So you end up with fewer people working inside the system (count both illegal and legal employees) and higher prices on top of that.

Even though illegal immigrants send money to their home, they still spend a lot here. That increases the velocity of money in local markets, because they mostly shop at bodegas not on amazon.com.
 
Drake said:
And if you have ever lived in a place with a high percentage of migrant workers you know the money does not get back into the system very easily. They hoard it, they Western union it to family back home and they are likely to spend it on basics.
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Exactly. This is why Mexico is making such a big deal out of it. They love that we take their poor citizens off their hands and they love the millions sent back home. It's a win-win for them. Just let America foot the fucking bill, they're invincible after all.
 
JustFU said:
carrying a nuclear bomb in a book bag
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:ugone2far:

Do you even have any idea of the fucking size of these things? A few weeks ago I stayed for a few days at Strategic Forces Command Mess (Tri-Forces unit responsible for managing India's nukes) and the sheer size of the things I saw in the pics there was mindblowing.

But that said, I have no problems with being stopped and asked to produce my identification. There are a lot of illegal middle-easterns, Indians and pakis in europe selling roses, mineral waters and being total scumbags, mooching off social security in Europe.

I dress the part and behave the part -- and have never once been stopped anywhere or questioned at the borders. But if I ever get questioned, I always have a copy of my visa available and all other required documents or some other sort of identification available to get me through to where I have access to these documentations.

That said, I have never been to US and I particularly don't care about applying for the visa unless such a situation arises where I absolutely have to. US Visa is a very humiliating process in the first place, compared to the european countries' far more refined approach, who don't treat you like shit.

As a result, in last year only they got over 20-30K€ of my money (and a bit less than that a year before), which I spent partying there and they are about to get a lot more investment from me in starting an actual operation there.

Okay the last part was a rant because I do miss coming to Affiliate Summits and Ad:Techs but it is not an "absolutely have to situation" nor worth the shitty process I will have to go through to enter US.

Anyway I am back to making the money and you guys can get back to whatever you guys were talking about. The thread was too long to read all the discussion here.
 
bcc423 said:
One other thing. Americans are like blessed ignorant children when it comes to bribes. Most Americans only seen the act of bribing on TV.

As a result, bribing on the street level is almost nonexistent.

I imagine an average cop can only say "no" to a bribe from illegal immigrants a limited number of times before actually caving in and "taking a fifty" to look the other way.
And once they realize just how easy it is to take bribes, there isn't a force strong enough in the world to stop the habit. It will spread really quickly regardless of the internal affairs' efforts, cameras, complaints, etc.

Then, it could spill onto other areas of police work, and then further into society.
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This is not Mexico. We do not have the same police culture.
 
bcc423 said:
OK, you think it won't? What would make it stop?

Once cops in Arizona start taking bribes, the whites will start bribing them for other shit, like driving drunk. Then, the shit will spread to other public servants and to other regions.

I'm not saying that's how it will go. But it might.
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It will not go that way.

Officers that work in an internal affairs capacity have a great love for busting cops. It is a fetish for them.

In addition, officers quickly buy into a "us vs them" viewpoint and often develop a "hero" mentality. This disappears a bit as the officer works longer at the job and gets disillusioned with the scum he works with every day, but for the most part he sees himself as above bribery.

Attempted bribes become a hassle and an annoyance. And cops hate hassles and annoyances. It makes them want to wreck the day of the person doing it, and in a day and age where everything they do is on tape (most officers wear microphones now) they can easily try to add on a charge of attempted bribery of a police officer to the myriad of other charges the guy will undoubtedly get hit with.

There are undoubtedly some cops that take bribes. With the 100's of thousands of cops out there, there are some bad ones. But the culture on the job views it as a pretty scummy thing to do. And cops require the respect of other cops.
 
BCC423 I would rather see 2 legal Americans with jobs than 3 illegals, or 4 or 5. The income might be the same but thats how I feel.

Eventually employers will bite the bullet and figure out how to hire the people they need legally.

They can rebudget. They have been using illegal immigration as a cheap way to put hands on projects, also they dont have to worry about workers rights or complainers.

They could also just squeal to La Migra or threaten to squeal.

Illegal workers in any country are disenfranchised and should try to avoid that situation.

Watch when the conditions get a little tougher most will leave. Its happening already. So how deep was their devotion to the American way of live?
 
All of this shit because the Arizona police can now ask anyone if they are illegal aliens? WTF

Here in Portugal, as in many other European countries, it’s illegal not to carry an ID card. The police have the right to ask you to identify yourself, anywhere, anytime (they normally only do it if they suspect something, or if someone complains about you). If you fail to produce identification, you are taken into custody for identification.
 
medicalhumor said:
how would things have gone if you had left your drivers license or id in your other pants at home by mistake and gotten hauled into the police station and been treated like an illegal immigrant?

Before you and Hellblazer call me a fucking liberal, I think there needs to be some house cleaning as well. I just think your statement that you didn't get mad about being pulled over because you are a law abiding citizen only works when you happen to have proof of being a citizen. If for some reason a legal citizen of Mexican descent, or someone who could be seen as a Mexican fails to produce their id, shit can go bad real quick.
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JustFU said:
Not having your Drivers license on you while you are driving a car is ILLEGAL. I'm almost certain that it is also illegal to not have some sort of Identification on you as well. So, legally the police would have a right to arrest you illegal immigrant or not.

Normally, it would probably only be a ticket or some sort of summons to bring your license to court or whatever, but because these fucking retards can't stay in their own country, the legal citizens of the state are also going to have to be inconvenienced to get the problem cleaned up.
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I have been stopped by the police without any identification on me before. The officer confirmed my identity by radio and I was sent on my way.
 
BTW, how come no one is looking at this from Liberterian point of view? This is a slippery slope if I ever saw one.

It will be racist in practice (racial profiling is racist by it's very nature) unless the state can conceive of a way to ID everyone. Like checkpoints. And do we really REALLY want this? So either you're ok with the racism or your ok with a military state.

I'm not ok with either.
 
turbolapp said:
BTW, how come no one is looking at this from Liberterian point of view? This is a slippery slope if I ever saw one.

It will be racist in practice (racial profiling is racist by it's very nature) unless the state can conceive of a way to ID everyone. Like checkpoints. And do we really REALLY want this? So either you're ok with the racism or your ok with a military state.

I'm not ok with either.
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With respect to what is going on in Arizona, I'm fine with either one until the problem is corrected.

For all of those that are afraid to offend someone, or somehow feel that actively trying to get the illegals out of the State and country, I have a couple of questions.

1. How do you think they should take care of the problem at hand?
2. Have you actually read the bill that was passed into law?

The problem, the way I see it is, that some of you assume that the cops will be out there chasing Mexicans down alleys, beating them into submission, and asking questions later. I think we all know that would not fly pretty much anywhere in this country, whether the person on the receiving end was an Illegal Alien or not.
 
turbolapp said:
It will be racist in practice (racial profiling is racist by it's very nature) unless the state can conceive of a way to ID everyone. Like checkpoints. And do we really REALLY want this? So either you're ok with the racism or your ok with a military state.

I'm not ok with either.
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Here (and in another post) it seems you've confused racist with prejudiced - there is a difference. Having preconceived notions about somebody based on their ethnicity, gender etc is prejudiced, not necessarily racist (or sexist, etc). Everybody is prejudiced because that is the way our brains process information. Racism is when you ignore information to the contrary of your prejudices and maintain solely negative opinions of someone based on their race. Big difference.

That being said, racial profiling is not racist. You're not assuming the Mexicans are less than human or worthless (ie. Jews in Nazi Germany, blacks during slavery, Rwandan conflict, etc) but you are assuming they are here illegally so it is prejudiced.

Prejudices are not necessarily a bad thing, since they help your brain to "roughly" process information quickly until you can gather more data to form a full opinion. Is it prejudiced to profile muslims at an airport - yes. Is it more effective than profiling 80 year old white women at the same rate? Of course.

As far as the Arizona Law, I only know what I've read about it which was just people's interpretation of it, so who knows how the law will be enforced. But if it gives cops the right to pull someone over because they suspect a person is an illegal, I would still have a problem with it. I'm sure it would be very effective in catching illegals in this country, but it's still a violation of a persons constitutional rights against unreasonable search and seizure in my opinion and it will probably be overturned by SCOTUS in the near future.
 
turbolapp said:
BTW, how come no one is looking at this from Liberterian point of view? This is a slippery slope if I ever saw one.

It will be racist in practice (racial profiling is racist by it's very nature) unless the state can conceive of a way to ID everyone. Like checkpoints. And do we really REALLY want this? So either you're ok with the racism or your ok with a military state.

I'm not ok with either.
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Not directed at you but i wanted to try and tackle some of your points.



About me .... I have personally lived in Arizona for awhile and now back in GA where i grew up.


1) Libertarian POV - Liberties are for citizens, or for those who are legally becoming citizens. If you are not a citizen you do not have the same rights as a citizen has.

2) They already do 'crime sweeps' in Arizona in Hispanic neighborhoods. The Sheriff has caught a lot of POLITICAL flak over it but it is legal and continues.

3) Arizona is a state in the United States of America. One of those state's rights is to pass laws it sees fit to protect or govern its population. Until this is challenged in a federal court and found unconstitutional or in violation of some federal statue it doesn't matter how unpopular it is in the other 49 states.

4) Texas and Arizona are THE states where illegal immigrants cross into the US. These states bear the brunt of the costs of illegal immigration. Both in policing the border, policing the sizable illegal population, policing the companies that hire illegals, fighting slave trade and human trafficking, and the cost of search and rescue of illegals as they attempt to cross the border. So it is in Arizona's interest to make itself as illegal immigrant unfriendly as possible to keep costs down.

5) Police racial profile already. It's not like this doesn't already happen. It's good police work. Looking shady with a few days beard growth in the airport, traveling alone, with a one way ticket? Congratulations! You've been 'randomly' selected for additional screening. This keeps costs down and keeps law enforcement efficient. Why screen a 92 year old WASP woman in a wheelchair?


And the big one.............


6) You as internet marketers 'racial profile' every day. However, we just call it 'targeting different demographics'. Accept this.
 
Racial profiling:

"Racial profiling is the inclusion of racial or ethnichttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity characteristics in determining whether a person is considered likely to commit a particular type of crime or an illegal act or to behave in a "predictable" manner."

Racism:

"Racism is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. Or, on the opposite side, racism can be described as the belief that a certain race or races portray undesirable characteristics."

I'm not certain whether the definitions above are accurate or comprehensive. Nor am I arguing a position. But a debate regarding the merits of racial profiling may benefit from agreement on the term's meaning.
 
To be honest, I really don't care if it's racist. I am also positive that all the Arizonans that have been raped, kidnapped and murdered by illegal aliens, don't give a shit either.

It's time to put the saftey of the US citizen and our economic well being over hurting the feelings of some Mexican fellons. If that means Im racist...so be it.

What is funny, is that only the chumps are butt hurt about this. You think that BO, Pelosi, Reid and Al Sharpton really give a fuck about illegal aliens??? They are using this whole fiasco for VOTES...nothing more.
 
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