Massive shooting in Colorado during The Dark Knight, 14 dead

[trickykid]

In my eyes the question is: would the audience carrying side arms lower the chances of the extent of the body count.

In my eyes, the question is: What sort of mayhem can we expect if everyone carries a firearm?

I won't dispute that there are people living in the USA that take firearm ownership seriously, go to firing ranges, and are generally good all around people. I also won't ignore that there are people who, while not criminals, aren't exactly the great of people and should definately not be allowed to carry a loaded weapon.

 

[wayn3]

none of what you say bears any relevance.

every human being has the right to arm himself. all the casualties in the world wouldnt change that.

 

[WhatupG]

We're just going around in circles here. If we should be debating the situation, we should be looking at survival chances, not whether a person would or wouldn't, with certainty, have been able to stop him. In my eyes the question is: would the audience carrying side arms lower the chances of the extent of the body count.

I'd take a 1% increase in probability his goal being affected than 0%. It makes me laugh when proponents of gun-bans say "there's no point in carrying guns to defend yourself because most of the time you wouldn't have a chance to use it". Like I said, it's better that people have a slighlty better chance at being able to do something rather than an absolute zero chance.

I agree with the guy who said we should stop playing the "what if game". None of us were there so constructing strawmen aint helping one bit.

Actually, I think in most circumstances a gun owner would have a decent chance of stopping a robbery or assault. The facts in this particular case are overwhelmingly pointing the other direction, except for the super gun ninja's that can avoid bullets (without protection), and gas (without a mask) while shooting through body armour in a smoky chaotic and mass panic environment.

The only reason people want to stop playing the "what if game
" is because their position is clearly losing.

I have no problems with agreeing that in many, if not most situations, personal guns could be helpful. Just not in this this one.

Despite what they may think, the simple act of owning a gun doesn't give people super ninja powers or make their dick bigger.

 

[emp]

Wouldn't it have been pretty easy to spot James in that theater when he was firing a semi-automatic, round after round with the light emitting from the weapon, especially if you were seated in a row closer to him?

I know people are fucking stupid, but I don't think they're stupid enough to confuse call of duty FPS with reality; and not resort to mindless and aimless spray and pray tactics.

What I am talking about is that when a few audience members also start shooting, no one knows who is who anymore.

::emp::

 

[guerilla]

Fact: The USA gun violence record is the worst in the world.

How is that fact relevant to this discussion?

Your turn.

Switzerland.

Oh, and no, I have never fired a gun.

So perhaps you're the one whose commenting from what he sees in video games and movies, rather than people who have handled firearms before.

 

[Rexibit]

What I am talking about is that when a few audience members also start shooting, no one knows who is who anymore.

::emp::

Unless the side-wall lights were taken out and the film isn't rolling, all the theaters that I've been in you could see people's faces at least within 5 rows of you. I don't know if that was the case in this instance, but it'd be much less likely someone would get caught in friendly fire.

Now, does the state of panic greatly increase people being caught in friendly fire? Yes. Would it result in the possibility of more deaths? Probably not, as someone with a weapon would have a greater chance of randomly being located nearer to the aggressor than if you weren't allowed to carry, in which case the aggressor has a greater probability of being taken out quickly.

 

[Fatbat]

Fact: The USA gun violence record is the worst in the world.

Too bad you can't get your facts straight troll. Gun violence is measured most accurately on a per capita basis and the US isn't even close to the worst in the world. Mexico is worse, for example, and so are many other countries.

Back to your cave.

 

[lukep]

Trickykid, it strikes me that you are somewhat emotional about making society safer, (I haven't seen 5 posts in a row from anyone on WF before) and that's fine, it shows that you care about the world you live in and the ability to not be afraid when you go out in public.

We all share these values to a similar degree.

However, the USA is a special place where the genie has been out of the bottle for years. In Canada it's about half as bad, so you still tend to think like a Brit or frenchy or something far more socialist there... But the fact is that the bad guys here ALREADY HAVE ALL THE GUNS THEY COULD EVER USE.

Every additional gun law you add on here, EVERY LAST ONE, will assist the bad guys in killing innocents.

The Exact opposite of your goal.

Since Canada isn't exactly a stranger to guns, your cute little country may have a chance yet to pass enough laws to stop it from becoming like the USA. If that's where you want to pour your passion about this subject, by all means go ahead and do so... I won't criticize you, but I do agree with wayn3 that every human has a right to defend themselves... A Right granted by Birth, not government... So it should never be a power of the government to take that right away from you.

 

[SirFappy]

In my eyes, the question is: What sort of mayhem can we expect if everyone carries a firearm?

So your answer to my question would be no, then. No need to reformulate the question.

You said you've never handled a gun in your life; like my mamma used t'always say: "If y'aint any experience with it, don't pass judgement on it".

 

[pocketrockets]

Gun violence is measured most accurately on a per capita basis and the US isn't even close to the worst in the world. Mexico is worse, for example, and so are many other countries.

Back to your cave.

True, but all of them are either developing or 3rd world countries with major economic and social differences.

Canada is by far the best comparison and most similar to US and their firearm related death rate is 3x less than that of the US.

 

[guerilla]

Canada is by far the best comparison and most similar to US and their firearm related death rate is 3x less than that of the US.

Canada doesn't have a fraction of the poverty, race issues or political corruption that the US has.

Comparing the US and Canada socially is like comparing Unicorns to Leprechauns.

 

[Moxie]

Fact: The USA gun violence record is the worst in the world.

Honduras 68.43
El Salvador 39.9
Jamaica 39.4
Venezuela 38.97
Guatemala 34.81
Saint Kitts and Nevis 32.44
Trinidad and Tobago 27.31
Colombia 27.09
Belize 21.82
Puerto Rico 18.3
Brazil 18.1
South Africa 17.03
Dominican Republic 16.3
Panama 16.18
Bahamas 15.37
Ecuador 12.73
Guyana 11.46
Mexico 9.97
Philippines 8.93
Paraguay 7.35
Anguilla 7.14
Nicaragua 5.92
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 5.48
Zimbabwe 4.78
Costa Rica 4.59
Argentina 3.02
Barbados 2.99
United States 2.97

Canada 0.51


Manitoba, Canada 1.74


Vermont, USA 0.32
New Hampshire, USA 0.38
Hawaii, USA 0.54
North Dakota, USA 0.61
Iowa, USA 0.69
Idaho, USA 0.77
Utah, USA 0.78
Maine, USA 0.84
Wyoming, USA 0.91
Oregon, USA 0.93
South Dakota, USA 0.98

Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country | News | guardian.co.uk
Gun crime statistics by US state: download the data. Visualised | World news | guardian.co.uk
Winnipeg and Manitoba homicide hotbeds « Markosun's Blog


Israel 0.09

Self-defense firearms may be carried in public, concealed or openly. Israel is notable for being a country with few places where firearms are off limits to licensed individuals

 

[Moxie]

I can't understand why political campaigns and speeches in the US are so dramatised. Here in Britain we don't get Cameron touring the country giving dubious speeches prompting all sorts of vocal interaction from the crowd.

Instead you get this type of thing :

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-GkrHKcwvo&]David Cameron vs Gordon Brown - very entertaining!! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[SirFappy]

Instead you get this type of thing :

David Cameron vs Gordon Brown - very entertaining!! - YouTube

I'd rather the politicians kept their shit talking to themselves than involving me in it. I hate Cameron, Brown and Blair with a passion. They should be locked in parliament and not allowed out.

 

[Moxie]

Witnesses have been saying on television how these tear-gas canisters were being thrown from more than one location and that someone in the front row answered his mobile phone, got up and opened the door for this gunman.

They're saying it was the shooter that got up, propped the door open and left to get his stuff, and then came back.

I don't get why he dyed his hair red and why everyone on the radio seems to be saying he did it to look like the joker... his hair is green. Kid couldn't even get that right.

Who knows, but there is a scene in the last movie where the Joker has a red/orange wig on and there is also a part in the comic where a guy with red hair (not the Joker) does a theater shooting.

 

[DewChugr]

True, but all of them are either developing or 3rd world countries with major economic and social differences.

Canada is by far the best comparison and most similar to US and their firearm related death rate is 3x less than that of the US.

It's not that simple, the comparison should be about violent gun crime, which may or may not change your results. The main goal for gun control dems would be to eliminate crimes committed with guns, robberies, murder, etc, not accidents and not police shooting criminals, hunting, skeet, etc. Gun control's goal is not to stop jimbo from shooting his big toe off while cleaning his shotgun or cousin eddy from killing bambie.

About half of the firearms deaths in the US are suicide. Would most of those still kill themselves if there were no guns or wouldn't it? I assume that also includes accidents, police shooting potential criminals,etc. Those aren't gun violence.

In chicago hand gun violence went up after a handgun ban. Even with that and the supreme court upholding a challenge to that law the idiot named Dailey is imposing stricter regulations. Even with a ban 29 people were shot last weekend. CCW may not have helped much there since most of those were probably gang on gang related and they probably all had guns. Does the mayor think that if we let honest people have guns that that's going to magically create more criminals.

 

[pocketrockets]

It's not that simple, the comparison should be about violent gun crime, which may or may not change your results.

Those stats are from violent firearm crime only. They do not include suicide or accidental death.

 

[lschmidt]

Guerilla,

I agree with most of what you say. However, in this instance, even if some citizens were carrying concealed firearms they would have had a hard time putting this guy down.

No, we don't know what he wore exactly. But what we have to go on is the fact that media describes it as full military-grade body armor including a ballistic helmet, throat protector, groin protector, gas mask, etc. I think he was pretty decked out from head to toe.

So you're watching batman, all the sudden there's tear gas in the theater and a gunman shooting people. Screaming and chaos all around you. It's dark. You're scared and disoriented, perhaps worried for your family. Yet in the midst of all this, you pull out a pistol and manage to shoot this guy in just the right spot? That's unlikely IMO.

FWIW, I think it's a good thing for citizens to have the right to be armed and carry concealed weapons. I'm just pointing out that in this case, even armed citizens would probably not have made a difference.

 

[guerilla]

Those stats are from violent firearm crime only. They do not include suicide or accidental death.

Dunno where you live bro, but I have traveled all over the US, Mexico, and a few other countries, and spent most of my life in Canada.

You can't compare the US to Canada because they are completely different. The idea that they are similar socially is ridiculous.

I agree with most of what you say. However, in this instance, even if some citizens were carrying concealed firearms they would have had a hard time putting this guy down.

Let's assume this is true. It makes no difference. The capacity to defend yourself should be at your discretion.

Yet in the midst of all this, you pull out a pistol and manage to shoot this guy in just the right spot? That's unlikely IMO.

But we expect the cops to be able to do this, right?

FWIW, I think it's a good thing for citizens to have the right to be armed and carry concealed weapons. I'm just pointing out that in this case, even armed citizens would probably not have made a difference.

That's possible.

The notion (by some, not you) that alternatives have to be perfect solutions or the status quo prevails favors idiots and the mentally challenged. Libertarians have to endure this sort of retarded argumentation all of the time.

Obviously marginal improvements are the most we can expect given that perfect reality is beyond the means of human achievement. In other words, we don't need an armed civilian to stop this guy cold, or even stop this guy at all. If allowing civilians to defend themselves and others means one more net life is saved or injury prevented, even over multiple attacks, that's a win.

 

[trickykid]

What I am talking about is that when a few audience members also start shooting, no one knows who is who anymore.

::emp::

That's been my point rightnfrom the beginning. I have already stated that since i dont live in the US, my opinion on gun control doesnt really matter. They can all have a gun for all I care. All i stated was that a theatre with an armed audience would have the potential for confusion and disasterous results.