Screenshot of Bitcoin Botnet

crackp0t said:
They're expensive to make and are probably cost prohibitive to just make them for personal use. You can't just go buy the parts at radio shack and build these.
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Don't forget that the hardcore bitcoiners, like the thousands of people that have thousands of posts over at bitcointalk, are extremely dedicated to seeing Bitcoin take off and would far rather put Ben Bernanke out of a job than make a few extra bucks.



nickster said:
They could build a massive business on credit if they can double their money in less than 2 weeks.
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Can't deny it could happen; I'm sure there is a scammer among the throngs of good-hearted coiners... However the scammer is simply going to face lots of competition in the system from all of the people rushing to use it properly.


-joe- said:
Exactly. Because the chances of actually finding any gold are very low.
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Not in times like these... If you get your hands on an ASIC rig you'll be rolling in money for months, no matter what your power costs.


Fatbat said:
A terahash per hour? I've never heard of anyone talking in hourly terms before when measuring mining performance. It's usually measured by the second. If a terahash per hour is measured simply by the accumulated mining done per second, that's only like 280 mh/s which is nothing.
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Crap; you got me. I wonder how many times I wrote about hashes per hour... D'oh! Sorry; got it mixed up today. I need some sleep in the worst way...
 


Wright said:
This $299 Tool Decrypts BitLocker, PGP, and TrueCrypt Disks

You may also want to read some of Bruce Schneier's papers on the truecrypt.
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lcver said:
You should know, if you read the article, that this isn't "decrypting", but a memory dump. A memory dump usually requires physical access to the PC while the secure key is in use, or later if the PC went into hibernation while the secret key was being used.

Schneier didn't crack truecrypt. He simply pointed out that truecrypted data's existence can be identified therefore it loses it's plausible deniability.

Even if the feds had a multi-billion dollar machine that could decrypt 256-bit AES, why would they waste a vast amount of resources to decrypt your truecrypt container of a bitcoin wallet?



The funny thing is that this has happened before.

Increased Power Usage Leads to Mistaken Pot Busts for Bitcoin Miners - Slashdot
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This. I am aware of the memory dump issues, also memory freezing etc. But this is not cracking any encryption like pointed out by lcver.

Thanks for the tip on Schneider, i will read up on him.
 
lukep said:
Not in times like these... If you get your hands on an ASIC rig you'll be rolling in money for months, no matter what your power costs.
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That was my point - if you had something that could make $300 a day, with a retail price of $1300 (so subtract a reasonable amount from that as profit taken), and fly under the radar for a while, not flood the market...

Would you sell it, or would you get together whatever credit you had available to build a first version as a PoC, followed by getting a loan as a result of that PoC?
 
-joe- said:
That was my point - if you had something that could make $300 a day, with a retail price of just over $1300 (so subtract a reasonable amount from that as profit taken), and fly under the radar for a while, not flood the market...

Would you sell it, or would you get together whatever credit you had available to build a first version as a PoC, followed by getting a loan as a result of that PoC?
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I'd beat that horse to dust
 
-joe- said:
That was my point - if you had something that could make $300 a day, with a retail price of $1300 (so subtract a reasonable amount from that as profit taken), and fly under the radar for a while, not flood the market...

Would you sell it, or would you get together whatever credit you had available to build a first version as a PoC, followed by getting a loan as a result of that PoC?
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The fight between socialism and capitalism is too noisy in your head, bro.

Sure, someone with ASIC designing skills who didn't deeply care about the future of Bitcoin could do that. Maybe a few of them even...

But the day ASIC was first mentioned in that huge community of coiners a couple years ago, hundreds of miners have been showing their demand for the product and those in the community with ASIC design skills have been working their hardest to deliver this product... These three companies ATM are just the FIRST three; others have said they are working on a product too.

At any rate, when an unscrupulous person tries to do what you say; he's going to spend countless hours designing and building just to realize that it would be much easier and cheaper to wait to buy one of his competitors' products.

Your argument only works if there wasn't a free market full of people trying to compete with him.
 
lukep said:
The fight between socialism and capitalism is too noisy in your head, bro.

Sure, someone with ASIC designing skills who didn't deeply care about the future of Bitcoin could do that. Maybe a few of them even...

But the day ASIC was first mentioned in that huge community of coiners a couple years ago, hundreds of miners have been showing their demand for the product and those in the community with ASIC design skills have been working their hardest to deliver this product... These three companies ATM are just the FIRST three; others have said they are working on a product too.

At any rate, when an unscrupulous person tries to do what you say; he's going to spend countless hours designing and building just to realize that it would be much easier and cheaper to wait to buy one of his competitors' products.

Your argument only works if there wasn't a free market full of people trying to compete with him.
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Lukep - your argument is essentially this:

ASIC manufacturers are producing rigs because their is huge demand for ASIC rigs.

But why is there huge demand for ASIC rigs?

Because their is huge profits to be made with the power afforded by the ASIC rigs.

So... why are the ASIC manufacturers not building the rigs for themselves and reaping the profits from mining themselves? Just because their is demand for them? That is circular reasoning.

And the gold and shovel analogy is bullshit because, the market value of all the shovels comes nowhere close to the market value of the gold... and it's the same case here (and the analogy doesn't apply since rigs are essentially automatic shoveling when shoveling back in the day meant hard labor)

If there are other ASIC manufacturers coming into the market, that just gives more reason to build the rigs as quickly as possible for yourself, and mine the fuck out of it.

If the profits from mining were less than the profits from ASIC manufacturing... there wouldn't be one rig sold or made.
 
C'mon guys, the Avalons shipped. Reviews are pouring in for the first 300 units. The next batch, twice the original size, is sold out already. You're all talking as if other designers weren't already selling...

Don't forget that we can all see in the Difficulty chart above what happened when the first Avalons shipped out. Clearly no other batches that large have ever been created.

Just play it through in your head... Assuming you had the ASIC design experience, or were willing to pay a designer to do it for you, you'd have spent a lot of time and materials just to build your rig, just in time to see your competitors flood the market with thousands of rigs just as powerful as yours for a tiny fraction of your R&D costs.

Maybe someone did do this; but if he did I'm going to Laugh at him; not admire him.
 
This actually starts to make me feel old now that I think about the whole concept.
I remember the first LSI chips being developed... back in ~94 / 95.

(I am old) (enough)
 
lukep said:
The fight between socialism and capitalism is too noisy in your head, bro.

Sure, someone with ASIC designing skills who didn't deeply care about the future of Bitcoin could do that. Maybe a few of them even...
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So how does creating ways to mine bitcoins far faster help the future of bitcoin? Surely if anything, it hinders, by driving up the difficulty, and making mining soon only accessible to people with custom mining rigs.

lukep said:
But the day ASIC was first mentioned in that huge community of coiners a couple years ago, hundreds of miners have been showing their demand for the product and those in the community with ASIC design skills have been working their hardest to deliver this product... These three companies ATM are just the FIRST three; others have said they are working on a product too.
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Ok, there's a demand. Market anything that claims to make your money back in a few days, and there'll be a demand. Free energy machines have a demand.

The point still stands though. It's clearly a business, and they're not saving starving children here, they're helping people to make money.

lukep said:
At any rate, when an unscrupulous person tries to do what you say; he's going to spend countless hours designing and building just to realize that it would be much easier and cheaper to wait to buy one of his competitors' products.
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Circular argument.
lukep said:
Your argument only works if there wasn't a free market full of people trying to compete with him.
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If all these companies exist, why? If there's already a company doing the exact same thing as you, wouldn't it make more sense to find another way to help BTC? Raise awareness? Campaign to stores to accept it? As I pointed out at the start of this post, all this does is drive mining out of the hands of the average person.
lukep said:
C'mon guys, the Avalons shipped. Reviews are pouring in for the first 300 units.
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That review is negative, by someone that doesn't own one...
 
productionhead said:
So... why are the ASIC manufacturers not building the rigs for themselves and reaping the profits from mining themselves?
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This is the number one question on my mind. They could run every rig they build for 48 hours under the guise of load testing and have potentially hundreds of units running all the time, singlehandedly churning out whatever comes after a terahash.
 
Fatbat said:
This is the number one question on my mind. They could run every rig they build for 48 hours under the guise of load testing and have potentially hundreds of units running all the time, singlehandedly churning out whatever comes after a terahash.
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If it were me I'd run them for a week then ship off the order. Make money with BTC and with the units. That's basically free money.
 
Kiopa_Matt said:
Or more than likely, it's as big as our fingernail. Haven't you really noticed that CPUs stopped getting more powerful years ago? Remember back in the day when it seemed like every year new computers were coming out twice as powerful? Nowadays, you buy a computer and 4 or 5 years later, it's still pretty decent. 10 - 15 years ago, your computer would have become a paper weight within two years at the most.

Moore's law dictates computer technology is still increasing, so what happened there? What's Intel been up to lately? They decided they've worked hard enough, put their feet up, and are having a relax? Or maybe, new innovative computing technology is still being developed, but just not being made available to us. I'd say the latter is closer to the truth.
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JESUS FUCKING HURR

it's like you don't even use computers.
 
-joe- said:
So how does creating ways to mine bitcoins far faster help the future of bitcoin? Surely if anything, it hinders, by driving up the difficulty, and making mining soon only accessible to people with custom mining rigs.
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Driving up the difficulty is undesirable for Miners only. It is Extremely desirable for bitcoin's security.


-joe- said:
The point still stands though. It's clearly a business, and they're not saving starving children here, they're helping people to make money.

Circular argument.
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I feel like we're arguing different things now. My responses to you have mostly been to refute your assertion:

-joe- said:
you have a box that you claim can make $300 a day... and you sell it for a total of 4 days earnings?

Seems a little too good to be true.
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The answer to that is that they'd have competition by the other miners who DID put out ASIC products, and their R&D cost would be gargantuan in comparison to just buying their competitor's product.


-joe- said:
If all these companies exist, why?
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Because they each had the background in ASICs and either wanted to be first to market, (R&D would have taken many months) or think they will do a better job and sell a superior product. And again, if some of them are business savvy, then they'd know that shovel sales historically outsell gold during gold rushes.

Typical free market problems.


-joe- said:
That review is negative, by someone that doesn't own one...
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It wasn't that negative; he just didn't like the superficial stuff, but did say what an accomplishment it represents because it did in fact put out all those Terrahashes. -He just expected it to be polished, too.

Here's a thread from someone who owns one, tons of pics:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140099.0

Lots of insight on that thread.


crackp0t said:
If it were me I'd run them for a week then ship off the order. Make money with BTC and with the units. That's basically free money.
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Not a bad idea actually, just until the difficulty doubles.

Unarmed Gunman said:
Why even sell the rigs? Why not just run them nonstop, refund the deposits and bank it all yourself?

Do you guys even math?
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I just explained that to -joe- twice.
 
^ lol that thread

asic.gif
 
lukep said:
LOL; just found this: Bets of Bitcoin

Apparently there are so many ppl thinking that butterfly labs is going to fail to deliver that there is a huge bitcoin betting pool for the wager!
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Moar BitBet

When I spoke to them about placing an order a while back they said a May/June delivery was likely. Hopefully that's still possible. If you follow their thread it looks like they are making some good progress in the last few days.
 
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