So is Bitcoin how to flee fiat money?

I knew this where you are going. :D

I don't have an answer on this question, i'm not a bitcoin lover/expert, just read about it a while back as it is an interesting concept.

I guess no one can stop smart people with lots of money and powers(for now), but I think they had a solution for this. Not sure though.

I think it's a real issue standing in the way of bitcoin ever becoming a major success, nobody is going to want to use an alternative currency that's so volatile nobody ever knows what they'll be able to purchase with it tomorrow let alone next week.

I like the concept, but because it's not backed by something stable like Gold it's just like a penny stock, there's nothing to stop people pumping it up and then putting massive sell orders in to crash the price.
 


Most people like the concept of Bitcoin, but aren't adapting because it's not tangible to their everyday life. The appeal of fiat money is that it's real. They can pull it out and hold it. A physical presence of wealth is something that's been around since man first traded with one another by shells, metals, gems, etc. Something of perceived value pushed the currency.

The problem with Bitcoin is that it's electronic. People can't touch it, they can't pull it out of banks and hoard it if they felt their wealth threatened, nothing. The closest they can get is pulling their encryption out of an exchange somewhere and downloading it onto their computer. Where's the secure feeling in knowing that you can physically touch it? Plus, even that little satisfaction requires some serious effort for a lot of "meh" feeling when it's done.

It just goes against millions of years of ingrained expectations of how to take care of wealth.




There are exchanges and keyrings for this kind of thing. Just store your password in a software like KeePass and you don't have to worry about being locked out.


I can't hug my paypal balance either :)

On another note, i can see it being quite useful for international internet transactions. If more people used it I'd sell my SEO/link service in BTC immediately. There are risks and issues associated with BTC but it's still a good concept overall. Personally I'm a fan of diversification so I hold USD/CAD/Silver and a few other useful things.
 
I think it's a real issue standing in the way of bitcoin ever becoming a major success, nobody is going to want to use an alternative currency that's so volatile nobody ever knows what they'll be able to purchase with it tomorrow let alone next week.

I like the concept, but because it's not backed by something stable like Gold it's just like a penny stock, there's nothing to stop people pumping it up and then putting massive sell orders in to crash the price.

almost non of the currently used currencies are backed by gold/anything.

and FWIW, I think gold isn't worth anything. It's only value is that it is rare. People give it value. Kinda like the bitcoin, no?
 
So then this leads me to my final question, what's stopping someone or a group of people manipulating it's price just like they did in the gold bullion markets?

What's keeping the government from manipulating their currencies? With government money we have no other choice of money to use. With private market money, like bitcoins, at least we can choose to stop using it if it becomes manipulated. We can't stop manipulation in currencies. We can only allow private businesses to compete and through competition allow the most honest currencies to arise as the most popular. There are always going to be manipulated currencies. But privately manipulated currencies that we voluntarily use are much easier to stop using than government decreed currencies like the FRN or Euro.
 
almost non of the currently used currencies are backed by gold/anything.

and FWIW, I think gold isn't worth anything. It's only value is that it is rare. People give it value. Kinda like the bitcoin, no?

Gold does have value, it is used in industry. Silver even more so. When we dig up more gold and silver we have more physical product to use for things like electronics and so forth.
 
Gold does have value, it is used in industry. Silver even more so. When we dig up more gold and silver we have more physical product to use for things like electronics and so forth.

supply of gold that is used in tech is really really low. It is used for financial purposes a lot more.

silver has better qualities than gold. Why is it cheaper?
 
I haven't paid attention to BitCoin for like the past 6 months or so. I was considering investing in it, and cashing out when it became more popular. Does anyone know what the value of a BitCoin has been doing relative to the dollar?
 
almost non of the currently used currencies are backed by gold/anything.

and FWIW, I think gold isn't worth anything. It's only value is that it is rare. People give it value. Kinda like the bitcoin, no?

That's correct. Gold is backed by the goods and services produced in the economy.

Goes back to the whole value perception, value is subjective and gold is supposed to be a hard to get scarce resource. Well people give everything value, no? Since without people there's no such thing as value.

Bitcoin on the other hand is just electronic numbers, well there's no limits on the amount of digital numbers that can exists.

What's keeping the government from manipulating their currencies? With government money we have no other choice of money to use. With private market money, like bitcoins, at least we can choose to stop using it if it becomes manipulated. We can't stop manipulation in currencies. We can only allow private businesses to compete and through competition allow the most honest currencies to arise as the most popular. There are always going to be manipulated currencies. But privately manipulated currencies that we voluntarily use are much easier to stop using than government decreed currencies like the FRN or Euro.

Who said they didn't already, China is always manipulating it's currency for a wide range of political and economic reasons. People do have a choice, but people make a choice to use federal reserve notes. Nobody is putting a gun to your head saying if you trade in anything other than federal reserve notes we'll burn down your house, and throw you in jail for the rest of your life.

If it was nobody would be allowed to own gold and bitcoin would be outlawed, along with all the other electronic and alternative currencies. They very people who complain about the system are the only ones who keep it in power and working, ironic really.
 
Gold does have value, it is used in industry. Silver even more so. When we dig up more gold and silver we have more physical product to use for things like electronics and so forth.

What happens if we run out of gold? Theoretically.
 
supply of gold that is used in tech is really really low. It is used for financial purposes a lot more.

silver has better qualities than gold. Why is it cheaper?

Fair point, although that may be changing soon. I'm not saying gold and silver is where it's at. I'm saying they almost always arise as currencies because it is hard to find anything better. I don't care what we use as money... so long as it is done in the free market and completely open to competition.
 
Who said they didn't already, China is always manipulating it's currency for a wide range of political and economic reasons. People do have a choice, but people make a choice to use federal reserve notes. Nobody is putting a gun to your head saying if you trade in anything other than federal reserve notes we'll burn down your house, and throw you in jail for the rest of your life.

If it was nobody would be allowed to own gold and bitcoin would be outlawed, along with all the other electronic and alternative currencies. They very people who complain about the system are the only ones who keep it in power and working, ironic really.

That's my point. It is much safer to have something done outside of the government monopoly than within it. Government is the worst offender for taking away choice and forcing us to do something against our will.

And you're wrong. It is illegal to use money the way we want to. Gold purchases need to be done on taxes as "bartered" items. Bitcoin is probably the same way. The Queen doesn't like competition so she makes FRNs the law and if you don't like using her money then she'll tax you for not using it. We still pay taxes when we use private money in America. So somebody is holding a gun to our head, they're called the IRS. If we don't pay taxes on free money and voluntary exchanges then we go to jail. If this wasn't the case I would stop paying my income taxes immediately.
 
That's my point. It is much safer to have something done outside of the government monopoly than within it. Government is the worst offender for taking away choice and forcing us to do something against our will.

And you're wrong. It is illegal to use money the way we want to. Gold purchases need to be done on taxes as "bartered" items. Bitcoin is probably the same way. The Queen doesn't like competition so she makes FRNs the law and if you don't like using her money then she'll tax you for not using it. We still pay taxes when we use private money in America. So somebody is holding a gun to our head, they're called the IRS. If we don't pay taxes on free money and voluntary exchanges then we go to jail. If this wasn't the case I would stop paying my income taxes immediately.

So you've just admitted that in fact it's not illegal so long as you pay your taxes in US dollars. Well if they can't track anything on bitcoin, then they'll be none the wiser. I don't think the Queen is your problem, I think it's the shareholders of the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England, since the Queen is nothing more then a tourist attraction.

List of community currencies in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Damn, I guess there's a fair few people who deserve a jail sentence then.
 
I think it's a real issue standing in the way of bitcoin ever becoming a major success, nobody is going to want to use an alternative currency that's so volatile nobody ever knows what they'll be able to purchase with it tomorrow let alone next week.

I like the concept, but because it's not backed by something stable like Gold it's just like a penny stock, there's nothing to stop people pumping it up and then putting massive sell orders in to crash the price.

Have you seen the price of gold lately? Hardly stable over the last 10 years.

However, of course the value of the Bitcoin can be speculated in, but the major difference is that is impossible to artificially inflate or deflate the amount of Bitcoins. There is simply a fixed number of Bitcoins which grow at a predertimened rate. This means that governments can't inflict Seignorage (money printing) tax on your money. An example, if your work is the equivalent dollar value of a Porsche today, then when the Feds pump out a few trillions, the value of your work becomes less since there is more money in circulation. So with the pressing of a few buttons, now you can only afford a Wolkswagen. That is impossible with Bitcoin. The money supply is fixed and can't be manipulated. The relative value of Bitcoin to other goods can of course be manipulated standard speculation, but in no way comparable to the 'quantative easing' circus.

The idea of a steadily, fixed growing money supply goes back to the founder of modern libertarian economic thinking, Milton Friedman and his economic theory of monetarism. Monetarism, meaning that the state controls the money supply to grow at a known growth rate, keeps governments honest since they can't inflate (make us all poorer) themselves out of excessive spending. This is why the Germans, who for decades have applied this thinking to the D-Mark and Euro, are out ahead. You simply have to see what's going on in the US to realize why Central Banks should stay the fuck out of money issuing.

In the ideal world, there wouldn't be single national currencies, but many competing currencies backed or structured in whatever way they want. Then consumers can freely choose if they prefer inflationary, tax backed money or gold money or Bitcoins or Liberty Dollars. In time, after some bank crashes, the currency that is the most stable will win out and the inflationary money will lose. This is what is at stake if currencies like Bitcoin succeed. Governments will be forced to not spend more than they can afford since they can't print money anymore - and never forget that money printing to finance a fiscal deficit is exactly the same as taxes.

The other thing is of course that free, anonymous money can't be directly taxed since no one knows who makes what transactions until they are converted to individual consumption. This would in a free agent business world mean that income taxing would be very difficult and would open up for a sales tax only scenario (or tax on assets). So you can see why governments would be against it.

It's all speculation of course. I have no doubt that the old boys of Goldman Sachs - after their successful takeover of the European Union - will make it their mission to destroy the Bitcoin along with the Central Banks (CIA will probably join just for the hell of it). But the cat is out of the bag and just like peer to peer sharing, anyone can just build on the open source software and improve it. It can't be stopped.

I doubt Bitcoin will reach critical mass anytime soon or maybe never, but for the global internet millionaires of WF it could be very useful.
 
Have you seen the price of gold lately? Hardly stable over the last 10 years.
That's the price denominated in dollars.

You are looking at the price backwards. An ounce of gold is still an ounce of gold. But paper money becomes increasingly counterfeited over time.

Most people don't understand what money is, and so these discussions get super lame. Yes, we should get away from government money, but any unbacked money is inherently unstable and a poor substitute.

What is the difference between bitcoins and guerillabucksTM?
 
That's the price denominated in dollars.

You are looking at the price backwards. An ounce of gold is still an ounce of gold. But paper money becomes increasingly counterfeited over time.

Most people don't understand what money is, and so these discussions get super lame. Yes, we should get away from government money, but any unbacked money is inherently unstable and a poor substitute.

What is the difference between bitcoins and guerillabucksTM?

There's no difference and that's not a problem. The market will decide which currencies can be trusted and which can't. There doesn't need to be backing as long as everyone knows exactly how much money is in the system. If we had free currencies, you could have your gold and silver money compete with Bitcoin. The market would decide which would win in the end. Of course, violence backed money like all tax-based fiat money would have to be abolished.

Also, I perfectly understand that gold hasn't increased in value as such, but that paper money has decreased.

Allow people to trade in whatever currency they please is what we should be aiming for, not only gold money.
 
So you've just admitted that in fact it's not illegal so long as you pay your taxes in US dollars. Well if they can't track anything on bitcoin, then they'll be none the wiser. I don't think the Queen is your problem, I think it's the shareholders of the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England, since the Queen is nothing more then a tourist attraction.

List of community currencies in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Damn, I guess there's a fair few people who deserve a jail sentence then.

Why do I have to pay taxes when I use gold? The whole point of using free market money is to get out of the government monopoly. I can't get out of the government monopoly by using gold when I am still being taxed on it.

Something isn't legal if I am penalized for not paying taxes on it. We are talking about 2 different things. You are talking about playing the phony I play by the IRS rules and pay my taxes game. I am talking about not playing that game at all. I am not allowed to not play the silly IRS game without going to jail. If it is legal why does the IRS come after me for not paying taxes on my gold?