This is scary

Thank you for the clarification. :)

Allow me to rephrase that statement.

One of the last notable forced conversions that happened in Islam occurred in the 18th century.

I offer my greatest apologies to the Hindus.

+rep dude!

----------

Edit: I'll give you rep later, I've given out too much.


Actually this isn't entirely true either...

This site (yeah, it's FreeRepublic) has documentation of Islamic forced conversion going all the way up to 2008.

They are all minor cases. Insofar as they aren't indicative as Islam as a whole. Keep in mind 90% of Muslims don't believe in jihad at all and that there are 1.57 billion Muslims currently living.

There are going to be plenty of stories.

However, it remains true that the last major notable ones occurred in the 18th century.
 


This is not entirely true.

During Islamic rule of the Indian sub-continent

The Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent led to widespread carnage because Muslims regarded the Hindus as infidels and therefore slaughtered and converted millions of Hindus. Will Durant argued in his 1935 book "The Story of Civilization: Our Oriental Heritage" (page 459):

“The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with great glee and pride the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave markets and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800 AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by sword during this period."

Persecution of Hindus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What he posted is not only "not entirely true" but almost completely untrue.
There are a lot of teachings in islam about either killing or converting the infidels. It's just that in recent history they seerm to be focusing more on the killing part than the converting part.


Verses taken from here.

The Qur'an:


Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down.


Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. See below.


Qur'an (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam.


Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."



From the Hadith:


Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah..." The last part is the Shahada, or profession of faith in Islam.

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

Bukhari (53:392) - "While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition with the mission of destroying a local religion in Yemen.

Ibn Ishaq 959 - Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. The text goes on to say that Khalid taught the al-Harith about Islam after their "conversion," proving that it was based on fear of slaughter rather than a free and intelligent decision.

--------------

BTW, I'm starting to get what popeye means by "wannabe atheists".
 
What he posted is not only "not entirely true" but almost completely untrue.
There are a lot of teachings in islam about either killing or converting the infidels. It's just that in recent history they seerm to be focusing more on the killing part than the converting part.


Verses taken from here.

The Qur'an:


Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down.


Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. See below.


Qur'an (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam.


Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."



From the Hadith:


Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah..." The last part is the Shahada, or profession of faith in Islam.

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

Bukhari (53:392) - "While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition with the mission of destroying a local religion in Yemen.

Ibn Ishaq 959 - Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. The text goes on to say that Khalid taught the al-Harith about Islam after their "conversion," proving that it was based on fear of slaughter rather than a free and intelligent decision.

--------------

BTW, I'm starting to get what popeye means by "wannabe atheists".

All this means is the Muslims haven't yet created the New Testament equivalent to negate all the primitive evils that their religion will be forever burdened with.

I'm sure I can pick a whole bunch of damning scripture from the Bible. Old Testament.

A lot of crappy stuff in there. (cites all here)

A Christian will quickly point out the fact that they have a New Testament, however. (negating all primitive evils)

Muslims are still burdened with their primitive scriptures because they haven't had a Christlike equivalent.

Christians have adapted. Christ was born and was able to guide everyone out of their primitive evils. (btw: Christ was real too, and he really moved the religion towards a better path, I don't deny his having existed either)

Muslims need to have a similar experience. They are adapting. Forced conversions have for the most part ceased except for a few straggling cases. They stopped in the 18th century.

In any case both the Bible and the Qur'an have their damning scriptures that we can pull from them.

Both are in different stages of their development.

Sunni (again Sunni is 90% of Islam) Muslim leaders are condemning the violence.

If you don't believe that the leaders of 90% of Islam are condemning the violence then please click here.

So what's your point exactly?

----------------------

Edit: The only Muslims (they aren't even considered Muslim by Muslims) that are killing people are Shia. 90% of Islam is Sunni, however.
 
What he posted is not only "not entirely true" but almost completely untrue.
There are a lot of teachings in islam about either killing or converting the infidels. It's just that in recent history they seerm to be focusing more on the killing part than the converting part.


Verses taken from here.

The Qur'an:


Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down.


Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. See below.


Qur'an (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam.


Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."



From the Hadith:


Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah..." The last part is the Shahada, or profession of faith in Islam.

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

Bukhari (53:392) - "While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition with the mission of destroying a local religion in Yemen.

Ibn Ishaq 959 - Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. The text goes on to say that Khalid taught the al-Harith about Islam after their "conversion," proving that it was based on fear of slaughter rather than a free and intelligent decision.

--------------

BTW, I'm starting to get what popeye means by "wannabe atheists".

I got a better argument for you....

The site you pulled all this bullshit from.... The Religion of Peace.

From wiki:

"After the September 11, 2001 attacks, some politicians described Islam as a "religion of peace" in an effort to differentiate between Islamic terrorists and non-violent Muslims.[1]"

Your citing directly from the 10% I speak of. (You're referring to even smaller segment of the Islamic faith, the radicals within this 10%)

Your move.
 
I got a better argument for you....

The site you pulled all this bullshit from.... The Religion of Peace.

From wiki:

"After the September 11, 2001 attacks, some politicians described Islam as a "religion of peace" in an effort to differentiate between Islamic terrorists and non-violent Muslims.[1]"

Your citing directly from the 10% I speak of. (You're referring to even smaller segment of the Islamic faith, the radicals within this 10%)

Your move.

The "Religion of Peace" is used sarcastically to refer to Islam.

They're essentially pointing to the 10% I speak of, the Shia, and point out the ridiculousness of the statement "Religion of Peace". Since the Shia aren't peaceful at all.

It can also be looked at as a euphemism. It's used this way by politicians to differentiate between the terrorists and the normal/moderate Muslims.

Politicians don't want to offend their audience so they say "Religion of Peace". It's a euphemism, ironic, oxymoronic, sarcastic, and true all at the same time.

Furthermore, from wiki:

"Muslims who are keen to emphasise their rejection of violence have used the term "a religion of peace” as a description of Islam, like Dalil Boubakeur, mufti of the Paris Mosque, who said, "The prophet did not found a terrorist religion, but a religion of peace."[14] After the 7/7 London bombings, some Muslims in the West increased their efforts to present Islam as a peaceful religion.[15]"

The fact remains..... 90% of MUSLIMS ARE PEACEFUL!!

I mean good goodness.

Could you imagine if this number was any lower? Every 1% would mean another 15.7 million Muslims believing in jihad.

If this number were any lower we wouldn't just know it. We'd experience it somehow with even more violence.
 
I got a better argument for you....

The site you pulled all this bullshit from.... The Religion of Peace.

From wiki:

"After the September 11, 2001 attacks, some politicians described Islam as a "religion of peace" in an effort to differentiate between Islamic terrorists and non-violent Muslims.[1]"

Your citing directly from the 10% I speak of. (You're referring to even smaller segment of the Islamic faith, the radicals within this 10%)

Your move.

My move is to be a true atheist/agnostic and not to defend a particular religion because of political reasons or for fear of seeming "intolerant". (Of course I can post pics/vids making fun of jesus without worrying about being deemed "intolerant", because I guess it's all good as long as you're only making fun of or criticizing christianity)

In about a week you've went from starting a thread that was supposedly intended to unite all atheists for the "cause" to actually defending a religion that is more responsible for the murdering of innocents and imposing of religious ideology on others than any other religion in recent history(let's say the past century or half century).

And personally, I'm more worried about radical muslims converting other muslims to radicalism than I am about them converting non-muslims.

Look at what has happened in the swat valley in the past few years. The Tablian are forcing other muslims to practice their extremist form of islam, in a country that has nuclear weapons.

Seriously, watch these videos with an open mind(which shouldn't be hard for a "real atheist", right?).

Pakistan Under Siege | FRONTLINE/World | PBS Video

FRONTLINE/World Pakistan: State of Emergency Synopsis and Video | PBS

And calling something bullshit doesn't prove that it is. You'll have to do better than that.
 
All this means is the Muslims haven't yet got over the Islamic equivalent of the "Crusades".

You keep mentioning the Crusades and are trying to compare it. The Crusades happened LONG ago, and was a war between Christians AND Muslims.

Honestly man, you're getting completely raped in argument by everyone here, can you take a hint when NOBODY takes your side? You're concerned so much with being an atheist that it completely destroys your ability to argue and think logically.
 
Christians aren't slapping 10 pounds of C-4 to their kids chests and making them run into restaurants to obliterate people. What's worse is that no leadership in the global Muslim community has emerged to speak out against this "jihad".

So, I think there is a difference.

Lol ever heard of the Crusades?
 
My move is to be a true atheist/agnostic and not to defend a particular religion because of political reasons or for fear of seeming "intolerant".

I can be a true atheist/agnostic and still defend Islam. (ever hear of devil's advocate? yes)

I'm not fearing myself seeming to be intolerant.

I'm simply pointing out the fact that others are being intolerant.

You can't deny that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. Others point to Islam and say it is violent. I say this is not the case. This is exactly what an atheist can do best... stand in the middle.

(Of course I can post pics/vids making fun of jesus without worrying about being deemed "intolerant", because I guess it's all good as long as you're only making fun of or criticizing christianity)

Trust me people can post vids here making fun of Islam too. There would be zero defenders. Nearly every vid that I posted were theology-neutral. There were a few that weren't.

In about a week you've went from starting a thread that was supposedly intended to unite all atheists for the "cause" to actually defending a religion that is more responsible for the murdering of innocents and imposing of religious ideology on others than any other religion in recent history(let's say the past century or half century).

It wasn't intended to unite it was intended to get ghey atheist music. I'm simply taking the neutral atheist stance. Christians or anyone pointing at Islam and calling it inherently violent are overlooking 90% of the population. An atheist is (nearly) the only person that can take this middle ground and point out the hypocrisy. The hypocrisy when a Christian points to the entirety of Islam and declares it evil and violent because of the actions of less than 10% of its population. It's hypocritical because a Muslim can just as easily point to the entirety of Christianity and declare it evil and violent because of the actions of less than 10% of its population. (cites all Christian terror here)

An atheist is in the perfect position to point out this hypocrisy.

We can ultimately say that both sides are being silly, yes.

But we must start by convincing them to stop pointing the fingers at each other.

We need to convince them that they are in the same boat together. That both sides have their extremism and that on both sides the MAJORITY is PEACEFUL.

An atheist is in the perfect position to stand in between both religions and say, "stop pointing the fingers"!


And personally, I'm more worried about radical muslims converting other muslims to radicalism than I am about them converting non-muslims.

Equivalently, I'm more worried about radical Christians converting other Christians to radicalism than I am about them converting non-Christians. One and the same.

Look at what has happened in the swat valley in the past few years. The Tablian are forcing other muslims to practice their extremist form of islam, in a country that has nuclear weapons.

Taliban are aren't indicative of the whole just as the Army of God isn't indicative of all of Christianity. You're referring to the 10% again.

Christians have people going door-to-door in a country that has nuclear weapons.

Hopefully, the Taliban won't take over the country.

Hopefully, the Jehova's Witnesses (some kinda form of Christians, same Bible at least) won't take over the country.

Seriously, watch these videos with an open mind(which shouldn't be hard for a "real atheist", right?).

Pakistan Under Siege | FRONTLINE/World | PBS Video

FRONTLINE/World Pakistan: State of Emergency Synopsis and Video | PBS

I'll watch them later, with an open mind of course. If you remind me.

And calling something bullshit doesn't prove that it is. You'll have to do better than that.

That site is basically a parody. The site that those scriptures you posted come from. Religion of Peace. <--click this link

If you look under the title (Religion of Peace) it says "and a big stack of dead bodies".

Do you think that this represents the Sunni majority?

It's a parody "Religion of Peace" and "a big stack of dead bodies."

If you click the about link on that site you get this...


"Here is why we exist: On 9/11, nineteen devout Muslims believed they had a religious mandate to fly planes into buildings and slaughter thousands of innocent people.
The Muslim world erupted with outrage over this horrible act of mass murder. Massive demonstrations were held in nearly every Muslim country and Western city. At these demonstrations, Muslim leaders harshly denounced Islamic terror and shared the many hundreds of verses from the Qur'an that encourage universal brotherhood, peace and tolerance. A slew of fatwas and clerical condemnations against terror soon followed.
Tens of millions of ordinary Muslims also reacted by rallying against violence and demanding that their leaders root out and eliminate the Islamic terrorists and their supporters. These same Muslims and their clerics called for introspection and atonement, accepting the role that the radical elements of their religion played in the attacks, and committing themselves to combating and eradicating the misinterpretation of their religion - the Religion of Peace... "
 
You keep mentioning the Crusades and are trying to compare it. The Crusades happened LONG ago, and was a war between Christians AND Muslims.

Honestly man, you're getting completely raped in argument by everyone here, can you take a hint when NOBODY takes your side? You're concerned so much with being an atheist that it completely destroys your ability to argue and think logically.

I said they happened a thousand years ago didn't I?

And look right above your post. :) Agreement.

---------

Also, I think you suffer from a heavy case of "confirmation bias".

Take your time, and go look it up.
 
I would like to propose a rule where no religious/atheist post can be > 100 words ... and that you are not allowed to post twice in a row. The above is a very swiss cheese argument but I don't have the time or the paitence to respond to someone who'd give an hour long speech to an oak tree

You "Christianity has no morality" video was a terrible exploitation of a caller who was a tool. First of all, God doesn't speak to people unless they're hallucinating or mentally challenged so the "what if" argument is totally hypothetical. Second, the extreme version of Darwinism/atheism would lead to eugenics ... we have a historical example of exactly how that turned out for the human race.
 
I would like to propose a rule where no religious/atheist post can be > 100 words ... and that you are not allowed to post twice in a row. The above is a very swiss cheese argument but I don't have the time or the paitence to respond to someone who'd give an hour long speech to an oak tree

Sure, we need a handicap. :) We'll just leave it at I was 110% correct if you don't choose to debate it. :)

You "Christianity has no morality" video was a terrible exploitation of a caller who was a tool. First of all, God doesn't speak to people unless they're hallucinating or mentally challenged so the "what if" argument is totally hypothetical. Second, the extreme version of Darwinism/atheism would lead to eugenics ... we have a historical example of exactly how that turned out for the human race.

First, I know atheism can be taken to the extreme. I don't see how that fits.

God doesn't speak to people unless their hallucinating, correct. It does happen though... (at least people think so)

God also speaks to people through man-made written text. Just as invalid as the hallucinations.

I beg of you sir, to point at the holes in my swish cheese. Aim at the weakest point, strike me at my knees.
 
Sure, we need a handicap. :) We'll just leave it at I was 110% correct if you don't choose to debate it. :)

Just because you can baffle with bullshit doesn't mean that you're correct ... it's still bullshit.

Again, go find yourself a christian forum ... you'll have much more fun because we've got better shit to do than help you chase your tail.

First, I know atheism can be taken to the extreme. I don't see how that fits.

We didn't see the value in your smoking analogy either ... unless you changed your view to "atheism is a clove". My point, atheistic extremism is still dangerous whether you see it fits or not. People are evil & eugenics made the "kill your son" analogy very wide scale.

God doesn't speak to people unless their hallucinating, correct. It does happen though... (at least people think so)

Bullshit, if people think so they're crazy ... that fits into my description.

You should be careful what you say though. By saying "correct" you are implying that there is a God and it's possible for him to speak to you.
 
Just because you can baffle with bullshit doesn't mean that you're correct ... it's still bullshit.

It's not bullshit to me unless someone points out the holes.

Again, go find yourself a christian forum ... you'll have much more fun because we've got better shit to do than help you chase your tail.

Why on Earth would I do such a thing? (join a Christian forum - I need to join an atheist forum) I'm not chasing my tail. People are extraordinarily prejudiced in this thread. They think that Islam on a whole is evil. I'm pointing out that this is wrong and prejudiced.

We didn't see the value in your smoking analogy either ... unless you changed your view to "atheism is a clove". My point, atheistic extremism is still dangerous whether you see it fits or not. People are evil & eugenics made the "kill your son" analogy very wide scale.

No one poked holes in it. Either they just said fuck it or they didn't understand it. Either way, they didn't refute it. Care to punch a hole? Or say fuck it?

Edit: I do remember Zeros saying something about his mind being blown. This could have been a stab at my argument, but I doubt it. He would have made it more explicit if so, knowing him. Edit: I remember logicflux following it also.

Bullshit, if people think so they're crazy ... that fits into my description.

People are crazy.

You should be careful what you say though. By saying "correct" you are implying that there is a God and it's possible for him to speak to you.

Well they think they hear God this is just as if not more dangerous than actually hearing God. (which is why I said "at least they think so")

-------------------

Ultimately, what are you trying to argue? That I should shut up?