Your Political Stance?

[pfgannon]

holy thread revival, batman!

 

[cL0ckwork_Red]

That defines the left to a T.

I know it's cool to say both parties are a joke but recently conservatives have actually started to get their shit together. I think this massive big Government push by those who want to redistribute 1 trillion dollars a year over the next 4 years has been a wake up call and lit a fire under their asses.

I don't see it. I don't see it at all. They haven't even been playing that fucking angle, they've run sobbing right back to the militant theocrats and the fair-weather fascists that they've courted since Reagan left the White House.

You want me to believe that the Republicans deserve my vote? Then tell me when Michelle "Crazy-cunt" Bachmann isn't being taken seriously. Or better yet, tell me when any of the Republican parties prime line-up doesn't consist of washed up has-beens or photogenic idiots.

The pragmatic Goldwater conservative is as dead as he ever was.

 

[lukep]

holy thread revival, batman!

Yeah I know it... Some damn fool has necromanced every last poll ever taken on WF and they dominate STS today... Impossible to find a real live thread ATM...

Couldn't resist commenting on HB's glory though... Too sweet to let go unnoticed forever.

I don't see it. I don't see it at all. They haven't even been playing that fucking angle, they've run sobbing right back to the militant theocrats and the fair-weather fascists that they've courted since Reagan left the White House.

The reason you don't see it is because the post you were commenting on was WRITTEN about when Reagan left the white house...

 

[christopherim]

I belong to the 'fix the economy, jobs, health care and education and forget about all that other shit' party

I am the only member so far :-(

 

[sixthcutuan]

Defo left wing. People's welfare matters more than anything in life, even my money.

 

[lukep]

Defo left wing. People's welfare matters more than anything in life, even my money.

Are you talking about yourself?

If so, are you a troll with long, green hair?

 

[sixthcutuan]

Are you talking about yourself?

If so, are you a troll with long, green hair?

Yes, no. I go to a pretty conservative school, live in a conservative area in a pretty wealthy city. All that has made me realise, the reason most of those people are conservative isn't because they believe in free trade or anything, it's either because their parents were conservative or because they just don't give a fuck about other people. I know I wouldn't live a happy life if I hadn't made a positive contribution to the world, but then, that's just me.

 

[lukep]

Yes, no. I go to a pretty conservative school, live in a conservative area in a pretty wealthy city. All that has made me realise...{that conservatism was thrust upon them}

This is exactly the story of my upbringing too until I started running my own biz. Things have changed since, to say the least.

...the reason most of those people are conservative isn't because they believe in free trade or anything, it's either because their parents were conservative or because they just don't give a fuck about other people.

Actually you will find that belief in capitalism and free trade and especially the government stopping all this redistribution of wealth is a HUGE reason for many to be conservative.

-Not that I'm a conservative anymore; I think all sides are equally flawed and find libertarian ideals the best for the modern business owner. (Like most people on Wickedfire would agree.)

You're right that young people who are raised in a household (just like you and I both) to believe 1 party's values don't stop to think about those values until later... If they do at all.

But what you're leaving out is that a decent percentage of the world does eventually grow a brain and start to question these values. (OK not so much of America with all of our couch potatoes and sheeple.)

These people, which you appear to be one of, usually switch sides to embrace the enemy because it "feels" right, only to find out much later that it is in fact equally flawed.

You'll find very few people on this board that support one party fully... Both parties and pretty much all politicians in general, no matter how good their intentions, are corruptible to the core and there is infinite money out there to corrupt them with. As long as we live in a Republic, this cycle will continue, no matter what all sides call themselves.

I know I wouldn't live a happy life if I hadn't made a positive contribution to the world, but then, that's just me.

I think most people do feel the exact same thing. It's what keeps mankind advancing instead of being like the Amish... But to do it in this day and age, you HAVE to be business savvy or it fizzles fast.

I just haven't found any political party or other group capable of actually making a positive contribution outside of capitalists themselves. All politics and special interest groups (which play in the same arena) are corrupt to the core.

Sure, capitalists can be corrupted too, but those individuals fall, while shining beacons like Edison, Gates & Jobs bring the world upwards and out of their dark caves regardless.

So the moral here is to tell all political parties to go fuck themselves and then go and learn to become a master of capitalism. If you don't, you'll do far better to keep watching TV all day and give up on the lofty dream of helping others...

Afterall, you can't feed the poor without money... And 100 other problems that all pop up which all require more money.

 

[samgeneric]

Yes, no. I go to a pretty conservative school, live in a conservative area in a pretty wealthy city. All that has made me realise, the reason most of those people are conservative isn't because they believe in free trade or anything, it's either because their parents were conservative or because they just don't give a fuck about other people. I know I wouldn't live a happy life if I hadn't made a positive contribution to the world, but then, that's just me.

Man, that's so stupid. Sounds like you're a lib because you don't want to be like everyone else. The whole point of liberalism is that you don't get to make a positive contribution, the government does it for you.

 

[d_diggler]

So the moral here is to tell all political parties to go fuck themselves and then go and learn to become a master of capitalism. If you don't, you'll do far better to keep watching TV all day and give up on the lofty dream of helping others...

Afterall, you can't feed the poor without money... And 100 other problems that all pop up which all require more money.

+rep

 

[sixthcutuan]

Thanks for the interesting answer.

This is exactly the story of my upbringing too until I started running my own biz. Things have changed since, to say the least.

Yup, I can understand that. I plan on gaining money but not for personal wealth but for social enterprise. You know, bring money to the people who need it. I've always been a bit of an idealist however so it's likely I will get corrupt later on.

Actually you will find that belief in capitalism and free trade and especially the government stopping all this redistribution of wealth is a HUGE reason for many to be conservative.

-Not that I'm a conservative anymore; I think all sides are equally flawed and find libertarian ideals the best for the modern business owner. (Like most people on Wickedfire would agree.)

You're right that young people who are raised in a household (just like you and I both) to believe 1 party's values don't stop to think about those values until later... If they do at all.

Completely agree, all sides are flawed. I was brought up in a mixed house personally. My father's side was very much left wing where as my mother's side tended to be the more wealthy, conservative side. I have never believed in a single parties views, in a perfect world people would vote for who they though was the lesser of all evils at the time. On your point of Libertarians, I actually find that many Libertarians can be more right wing than Conservatives. I've found a quote from Wikipedia just to back this point up. "Some libertarians go further, such as by supporting minimal public assistance for the poor."

In my personal view, that's just sick. I remember reading some article somewhere (respectable source - can't remember where sorry) that sympathy was a part of evolution. I find the laissez faire attitude horrific.

But what you're leaving out is that a decent percentage of the world does eventually grow a brain and start to question these values. (OK not so much of America with all of our couch potatoes and sheeple.)

It really depends on the area. I know from my personal country (UK) and the same happens in your country that areas are known as "safe seats". As in, Conservatives or Labour are very secure in that area and know it's incredibly unlikely that they will lose the support of those areas. There's definitely a correlation between Labour supporters living in the centre of cities (Often poorer areas) and the conservatives living in the country, with a much stronger support towards the south of England (Wealthier area). Scotland is not such a wealthy country and is very much still a community and the Conservatives are very unpopular here. To me this shows a strong correlation of which parties people vote, the area's they and their parents have been brought up in and their personal wealth. I feel that while many people do change their minds, even more do not. No offence to anyone's political beliefs but I am amazed by the Republican party, many candidates seem to be backward thinking, ignorant and money chasing from an external view. They wouldn't last one day in the UK.

These people, which you appear to be one of, usually switch sides to embrace the enemy because it "feels" right, only to find out much later that it is in fact equally flawed.

That's why I always believe in the lesser of all evils, not any side. I turned Conservative for a couple of months a few years ago, until I realised Cameron was far too rash and inexperienced.

You'll find very few people on this board that support one party fully... Both parties and pretty much all politicians in general, no matter how good their intentions, are corruptible to the core and there is infinite money out there to corrupt them with. As long as we live in a Republic, this cycle will continue, no matter what all sides call themselves.

That's why it's our duty to make an educated choice.

I think most people do feel the exact same thing. It's what keeps mankind advancing instead of being like the Amish... But to do it in this day and age, you HAVE to be business savvy or it fizzles fast.

A good quote from me that a friend has always remembered. "I would rather live 40 happy years than 80 years of misery." Business does not come first for me. If I need to make money, I do it with honesty and fair play.

I just haven't found any political party or other group capable of actually making a positive contribution outside of capitalists themselves. All politics and special interest groups (which play in the same arena) are corrupt to the core.

It's a shame really. Especially since I hate capitalists a lot. I'm afraid to say I hated the stances BOTH the US and the USSR took in the Cold War.

Sure, capitalists can be corrupted too, but those individuals fall, while shining beacons like Edison, Gates & Jobs bring the world upwards and out of their dark caves regardless.

It really depends. Edison attempted to move the world backwards by stifling AC and saying his DC was better. The inventor called Tesla actually died pretty poor despite being one of the greatest scientists ever, he was crushed by Edison's press slander. Look at us now, we use AC (I hate Edison with a passion). Bill Gates has also done a lot for charity, massive amounts actually. Isn't he giving a ridiculous amount to charity when he dies? Oh and Jobs is a douche. I would say social enterprise helps the world more than capitalist enterprise any day.

So the moral here is to tell all political parties to go fuck themselves and then go and learn to become a master of capitalism. If you don't, you'll do far better to keep watching TV all day and give up on the lofty dream of helping others...

Afterall, you can't feed the poor without money... And 100 other problems that all pop up which all require more money.

Social enterprise. Bringing jobs to area's that need it. So many people wan't to help, look at fair trade coffee, fair trade chocolate. People are willing to spend that extra bit so others who are less fortunate can do better. I do feel however that the greed of a few hinders the assistance of many. Life may be unfair, but it doesn't mean we should give up, we should always strive to make it fairer.

Thanks again.

Man, that's so stupid. Sounds like you're a lib because you don't want to be like everyone else. The whole point of liberalism is that you don't get to make a positive contribution, the government does it for you.

Erm what? I'm liberal because I believe in helping people and that being right wing isn't the way to do that. You're right in a way, I don't want to be like some of the people that don't give a fuck about others. That's not human. Oh and you can still help others without the government.

 

[d_diggler]

The best way to help others is to look after yourself.

 

[lukep]

This is an interesting conversation because it strikes right to the heart of what a conservative is and what a liberal is. I don't believe that there are enough people to shake a stick at that would not want to give something to society... There is no Evil out there that possesses a soul... But clearly half the people out there believe that the way to do good is by being a conservative, and the other half think that being a Liberal is the only way.

So let's put aside labels like Repubs and Labour, and put aside geography too, and talk about just the values for a moment.

Do you truly feel that liberal, socialistic values, such as having your government tax more to give to social help programs, make the world a better place than conservative values, like letting the markets roam free? What specifically does the "good?"

It's a shame really. Especially since I hate capitalists a lot. I'm afraid to say I hated the stances BOTH the US and the USSR took in the Cold War.

What is it you find so offensive about capitalism, in particular? Would you like to live in a world where it doesn't exist?

Edison attempted to move the world backwards by stifling AC and saying his DC was better. The inventor called Tesla actually died pretty poor despite being one of the greatest scientists ever, he was crushed by Edison's press slander. Look at us now, we use AC (I hate Edison with a passion).

So it's all about fairness? You desperately want Edison to be tarred and feathered while Tesla is heralded the father of electricity? Then it's the "back" games of business and marketing that you hate, not capitalism itself.

Capitalism is basically freedom to do what you want. If you want to sell your lemonaide for $1 more than normal because you know you've got no competition at your location, then Capitalism says go for it. -And So Too should someone go for a nearby neighbor popping up a lemonaide stand beside you and start a price war.

Let the customers decide who's lemonaide they want. This is fairness in it's purist form. That is capitalism, not the unfair tricks that allowed Edison to slander... That was not fair at all. And it's important to note that such slander is easier done in communism than it is done in capitalism, where you have to convince the many that your slander is true.

Bill Gates has also done a lot for charity, massive amounts actually. Isn't he giving a ridiculous amount to charity when he dies? Oh and Jobs is a douche. I would say social enterprise helps the world more than capitalist enterprise any day.

Put aside their (massive) charity for a moment; Could you imagine the world without these two men's efforts?

Those two men could not have gotten a computer in your house without the entire economic engine that is capitalism. It's completely impossible that you'd be able to afford that computer your looking at right now if they didn't use the best technology distribution tool known to mankind: The free capitalist market.

Even the Amish know the value of capitalism; I'd hate to see what they'd be like today if they weren't capitalists that sold their goods to the highest bidder and keep up with market demands... They'd have no reason to work hard or make quality goods... They'd likely return to caves or something... Like we all would eventually.

Afterall, you can't feed the poor without money... And 100 other problems that all pop up which all require more money.

Social enterprise. Bringing jobs to area's that need it.

The downside to capitalism when an area doesn't have jobs can force people to move, but somewhere those jobs always exist when capitalism prevails.

The downside to pure Socialism when an area doesn't have jobs is far, far, far worse... At best it could make a "soft" workforce that doesn't really have a reason to do good work, (like the Russians well learned) and at worst it removes all freedom from a people and bleeds their economy dry.

I know you weren't trying to push pure socialism but there is a degree of this in social enterprise too, whenever the government is involved in any way whatsoever... And just try to get something done using social enterprise without any form of government assistance/permission...

So many people wan't to help, look at fair trade coffee, fair trade chocolate. People are willing to spend that extra bit so others who are less fortunate can do better.

I've heard of these things but honestly have never seen any such products in person before. We're really not talking about a large enough market here to change anything.

I do feel however that the greed of a few hinders the assistance of many. Life may be unfair, but it doesn't mean we should give up, we should always strive to make it fairer.

In a way you're right, but it's not the greed of a few humans that you should worry about. In capitalism, a few humans doing their greedy thing would be a tiny drop in the bucket and their meager companies would likely receive bad reviews or some other negative press and have to amend their ways or go out of business before too long.

Capitalism has this system of checks and balances built in... The laws of supply and demand are perfect and self-evident... But our countries' laws today are not.

So it's not people at all you have to worry about, not even the most black-hearted evil villains selling snake oil to Ugandon refugees... Their time is temporary and they would be caught before long...

It's the major, multinational corporations that are skewing all these laws and injustices in their favor. They are the only ones who could do so; their economies are sometimes larger than national economies... They've got many Trillions of dollars, and money is power in this world, plain and simple.

Huge corps like (ironically) GE and BP... These corps don't just do some shady tax schemes every now and then... Every part of them is built from the ground up to make money at the expense of citizens the world over. They use unfathomable wealth to buy and sell every last senate, house, judicial, and executive branch lawmaker in the civilized world, many times over, every single year to ensure that the laws our countries write are in their favor, not yours. And CERTAINLY not in fairness' favor.

You're in England; did you see the BBC's Century of the Self? You'd love it and it explains how these megaliths rose to such power... All Sigmund Freud's fault. It's on YouTube.

Anyway, I've typed away an entire productive afternoon here today because I'm trying to say that socialism has more drawbacks than Capitalism... Which should not be to blame for the evil business tactics that we see in use so commonly today...

That's not capitalism; capitalism means "Free" and those cause a form of slavery.

That is the affect of the evil that is at the top of everything in this world and the only thing we should all be fighting instead of each other.

 

[d_diggler]

To add a little to an already good post –

If we look at the poor people of the world, or the people socialism is there to help – it’s those people who suffer the most under the regime. When society advances everybody enjoys this. Electricity was mentioned so let’s use that as an example. Capitalism drove both the development and deployment of electricity and now everyone bar a very small minority enjoy it.

There are 1000s of examples but the fact is that society only advances when people are free – and as has been pointed out capitalism in its purest sense is freedom.

The checks and balances analogy was a good one – this exists outside of a regulated economy.

Left alone an economy will always strike an equilibrium – it’s government regulation that allows the skewing and manipulation of laws by multinationals. Remove the government and people are free to choose on the facts. Regulation achieves nothing but a rubber stamp of approval that we all assume means it’s OK – villains are still in business and most small to medium size businesses know that they only survive based on their reputation tomorrow, this is in isolation of regulation.

I made this exact analogy to my partner when coming to work this morning –

If I’m left alone to work, whether it’s for myself or someone else without overburdening taxes, regulation and general bullshit I’ll create wealth. My first priority with that wealth will be to look after my family, this should be the same for everybody.

This is positive selfishness – it may seem on the surface I’ve given nothing back but of course I have in not being a burden on others and raising my children to be balanced and productive members of society.

I’ve already done more at that stage than the millions I’ll pay in tax for redistribution over my lifetime.

Also take into account – I’ll have surplus under this scenario. For most (not all but that should be their decision) there is a cause they feel worthy of giving to. The big difference between giving to this and paying taxes is I’ll make dam sure the money I’m giving voluntarily goes to good use – I currently have no control over the tax I pay.

People who believe or want to believe in socialism probably need to think about whether what they believe in is a fair chance for everyone – then decide if they still think socialism is the best way to achieve this. Fair = Free = Fair.

 

[samgeneric]

Erm what? I'm liberal because I believe in helping people and that being right wing isn't the way to do that. You're right in a way, I don't want to be like some of the people that don't give a fuck about others. That's not human. Oh and you can still help others without the government.

How can you help people with government?

The only power the government has is coercion. They take from me to give to someone else. This doesn't actually help anyone. It makes people wards of the state, dependent on my assets to make their life better. I didn't earn my money to make someone else's life better.

Ok ok ok, now you're going to talk about how government safeguards need to exist for the least fortunate. Nice try. You mean like the 1 or 2% of people that are not able to work? Interesting. Because like 50% of the people in this country live on the dole. We have ridiculous unfunded pensions being run within the states. We have wellfare mothers having more and more children. And you think that you can do good by giving to government? Nope. You can't. You can give to charity. You can do charitable things. But you don't get absolution by doing good through the government.

The problem with liberals is that they are moral exhibitionists. Like you think that giving taxes is your duty. Good for you. Congratulations, your mentality is making our country poor. At least you helped people. That was nice.

Hating capitalism is such the easy thing to do. Like what do you hate about it? What can you possibly hate? Capitalism is the most perfect expression of freedom. Capitalism is the reason the so-called poor in the US can still afford to eat, own televisions (with Cable) and still support a cocaine habit. It's just so dumb to think that the poor in this country are worse off than in other countries. Especially if you consider how heterogeneous our population is.

 

[samgeneric]

Another thing, I moved to Florida to start my business. I hire 3 people. I will make just over a half million this year. In New York, I was taxed 51%. I moved to FL because there is no income tax. You know what that means? I GET TO KEEP WHAT I MAKE. I was attracted to this state because I can decide what to do with my money. I will be giving nearly 100k to charity this year. In addition, three other people IN FLORIDA have jobs because of me. I'm in FL because of the low taxes. Ergo, low taxes created four jobs (including mine). Guess what I gave to charity last year? $0. I couldn't afford it. But thank God for all those taxes. I'm sure they helped the thousands of poor people that live in the Subways. Too bad NY doesn't get the benefit of my property tax payments or my sales tax payments. If you think I'm an anomaly, you have no idea. Rush Limbaugh left NY for the same reason, Jimmy Johns founder is thinking of exiting IL, and there are more. For other states just these two individuals alone represent the loss of hundreds of jobs and probably millions of tax dollars.

I'd be willing to bet, though, that the people who are employed by Jimmy Johns and Rush Limbaugh are way better off than those people helped by the government.

 

[sixthcutuan]

I do love interesting discussions.

Do you truly feel that liberal, socialistic values, such as having your government tax more to give to social help programs, make the world a better place than conservative values, like letting the markets roam free? What specifically does the "good?"

Take the industrial revolution. Markets we're pretty free then, Britain was the economic powerhouse of the world and was very rich because of it. Yet there was still incredible inequalities in wealth, unfair laws and horrendous treatment of the poor. Many of the rich wouldn't help because their low wages were making them rich, only philanthropist's, more Liberal thinking and the government could get people out of this situation. In fact ive done a few essays before on this exact point.

What is it you find so offensive about capitalism, in particular? Would you like to live in a world where it doesn't exist?

We all know it is necessary. I'm a bit hypocritical in a way, I love freedom yet feel the government needs to step in at points. My feeling about capitalism is that everyone is trying to gain as much money for themselves and if someone gains money, someone else has to lose it. There is always a loser. Look at John Nash's Equilibrium theory. The best solution is if one person does what is best for them, taking into account what is best for the other people.

So it's all about fairness? You desperately want Edison to be tarred and feathered while Tesla is heralded the father of electricity? Then it's the "back" games of business and marketing that you hate, not capitalism itself.

I hate the back games too. They go hand in hand with so many capitalists.

Capitalism is basically freedom to do what you want. If you want to sell your lemonaide for $1 more than normal because you know you've got no competition at your location, then Capitalism says go for it. -And So Too should someone go for a nearby neighbor popping up a lemonaide stand beside you and start a price war.

Let the customers decide who's lemonaide they want. This is fairness in it's purist form. That is capitalism, not the unfair tricks that allowed Edison to slander... That was not fair at all. And it's important to note that such slander is easier done in communism than it is done in capitalism, where you have to convince the many that your slander is true.

That's great if its almost a perfect market. Eg. All products are the same, consumer know of all the different prices etc. In real life however it is an imperfect market. Consumers are tricked with tactics such as psychological pricing. Eg. Apply prices their computers at a far higher price, despite the fact there is no different. People then think that these products must be better because they cost more. People also don't know that they could be buying lemonade for cheaper if they crossed the road. It's great that the customer gets a choice, but in every case it isn't a fully educated choice.

Oh and I don't mean to have an argument about communism, I don't like it either.

Put aside their (massive) charity for a moment; Could you imagine the world without these two men's efforts?

Those two men could not have gotten a computer in your house without the entire economic engine that is capitalism. It's completely impossible that you'd be able to afford that computer your looking at right now if they didn't use the best technology distribution tool known to mankind: The free capitalist market.

What free capitalist market? Free markets do not exist in this world.

Even the Amish know the value of capitalism; I'd hate to see what they'd be like today if they weren't capitalists that sold their goods to the highest bidder and keep up with market demands... They'd have no reason to work hard or make quality goods... They'd likely return to caves or something... Like we all would eventually.

Yep communism lacked large incentives, that was it's problem. Here's a quote from wikipedia about capitalism: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit.". You see what I want it to be is: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit and social improvement."

I really think that in so many cases by just adding a few pence to items, you could help out whole communities and so, so many people. Take the incredibly low wages that companies such as Nike give to people in third world countries. A few pence would hardly change a UK or US consumer but could change their wages a lot.

The downside to capitalism when an area doesn't have jobs can force people to move, but somewhere those jobs always exist when capitalism prevails.

As long as the market doesn't fail. Eg. Monopolies, lack of resources.

The downside to pure Socialism when an area doesn't have jobs is far, far, far worse... At best it could make a "soft" workforce that doesn't really have a reason to do good work, (like the Russians well learned) and at worst it removes all freedom from a people and bleeds their economy dry.

I know you weren't trying to push pure socialism but there is a degree of this in social enterprise too, whenever the government is involved in any way whatsoever... And just try to get something done using social enterprise without any form of government assistance/permission...

I know someone worth $30 million. He started with $100 in his pocket in Russia after getting there from India. Ever since then he has been doing social enterprise projects and has improved area's by a huge amount. He turned some of these area's that used to have a "soft" workforce into leaders in some markets. I agree there's no point with a "soft" workforce but with enough investment you can really turn an area into something good.

I've heard of these things but honestly have never seen any such products in person before. We're really not talking about a large enough market here to change anything.

Erm what? In my country they are everywhere, mentioned on adverts everywhere. I ONLY buy fairtrade coffee, chocolate and food as a whole. There is a HUGE market for this. Taken from wikipedia: "some fair trade products account for 20-50% of all sales in their product categories in individual countries. In June 2008, Fairtrade Labelling Organizations International estimated that over 7.5 million producers and their families were benefiting from fair trade funded infrastructure, technical assistance and community development projects."

In a way you're right, but it's not the greed of a few humans that you should worry about. In capitalism, a few humans doing their greedy thing would be a tiny drop in the bucket and their meager companies would likely receive bad reviews or some other negative press and have to amend their ways or go out of business before too long.

Only a tiny drop in the bucket if they are small. Say if they are the owners of BP or a large bank, they can do whatever they want practically.

Capitalism has this system of checks and balances built in... The laws of supply and demand are perfect and self-evident... But our countries' laws today are not.

Not perfect I'm afraid. See market failure above.

So it's not people at all you have to worry about, not even the most black-hearted evil villains selling snake oil to Ugandon refugees... Their time is temporary and they would be caught before long...

It's the major, multinational corporations that are skewing all these laws and injustices in their favor. They are the only ones who could do so; their economies are sometimes larger than national economies... They've got many Trillions of dollars, and money is power in this world, plain and simple.

Huge corps like (ironically) GE and BP... These corps don't just do some shady tax schemes every now and then... Every part of them is built from the ground up to make money at the expense of citizens the world over. They use unfathomable wealth to buy and sell every last senate, house, judicial, and executive branch lawmaker in the civilized world, many times over, every single year to ensure that the laws our countries write are in their favor, not yours. And CERTAINLY not in fairness' favor.

Yep and all allowed because of capitalism.

You're in England;

Scotland actually. Hence the left wing part.

did you see the BBC's Century of the Self? You'd love it and it explains how these megaliths rose to such power... All Sigmund Freud's fault. It's on YouTube.

I'll check that out thanks.

Anyway, I've typed away an entire productive afternoon here today because I'm trying to say that socialism has more drawbacks than Capitalism... Which should not be to blame for the evil business tactics that we see in use so commonly today...

That's not capitalism; capitalism means "Free" and those cause a form of slavery.

Capitalism means "follow the profit". Not free. The people at the bottom of the wealth are not "free" they are tied to debts and hardships.

 

[sixthcutuan]

To add a little to an already good post –

If we look at the poor people of the world, or the people socialism is there to help – it’s those people who suffer the most under the regime. When society advances everybody enjoys this. Electricity was mentioned so let’s use that as an example. Capitalism drove both the development and deployment of electricity and now everyone bar a very small minority enjoy it.

Tesla was the inventor of modern electricity. It is the very capitalist system that made him die poor and for his science to only be used far in the future. You have Edison to thank for that.

There are 1000s of examples but the fact is that society only advances when people are free – and as has been pointed out capitalism in its purest sense is freedom.

Like I said to LukeP. Ask anyone that is trying to pay off family debts or is struggling to work for their kid's upbringing, ask them if they feel "free". I know you guys won't probably want to hear this but I know many russians (friends and some family) that are currently being crushed with the extreme capitalism of Russia currently. They wan't to go back to communist times, at least they got healthcare, good education and jobs then (That is THEIR feelings, not mine).

The checks and balances analogy was a good one – this exists outside of a regulated economy.

Left alone an economy will always strike an equilibrium – it’s government regulation that allows the skewing and manipulation of laws by multinationals. Remove the government and people are free to choose on the facts. Regulation achieves nothing but a rubber stamp of approval that we all assume means it’s OK – villains are still in business and most small to medium size businesses know that they only survive based on their reputation tomorrow, this is in isolation of regulation.

Checks and balances do not always work. See market failure. Eg. monopolies. These guys need to be regulated.

I made this exact analogy to my partner when coming to work this morning –

If I’m left alone to work, whether it’s for myself or someone else without overburdening taxes, regulation and general bullshit I’ll create wealth. My first priority with that wealth will be to look after my family, this should be the same for everybody.

This is positive selfishness – it may seem on the surface I’ve given nothing back but of course I have in not being a burden on others and raising my children to be balanced and productive members of society.

Agreed. You are not being selfish. But what about the people with hundreds of millions already, why do they need any more?

I’ve already done more at that stage than the millions I’ll pay in tax for redistribution over my lifetime.

Also take into account – I’ll have surplus under this scenario. For most (not all but that should be their decision) there is a cause they feel worthy of giving to. The big difference between giving to this and paying taxes is I’ll make dam sure the money I’m giving voluntarily goes to good use – I currently have no control over the tax I pay.

It's great if you're a good person that likes to give to charity. Unfortunately many don't.

People who believe or want to believe in socialism probably need to think about whether what they believe in is a fair chance for everyone – then decide if they still think socialism is the best way to achieve this. Fair = Free = Fair.

I dont believe in pure socialism but I still don't think modern capitalism is free or fair.

How can you help people with government?

The only power the government has is coercion. They take from me to give to someone else. This doesn't actually help anyone. It makes people wards of the state, dependent on my assets to make their life better. I didn't earn my money to make someone else's life better.

Ok ok ok, now you're going to talk about how government safeguards need to exist for the least fortunate. Nice try. You mean like the 1 or 2% of people that are not able to work? Interesting. Because like 50% of the people in this country live on the dole. We have ridiculous unfunded pensions being run within the states. We have wellfare mothers having more and more children. And you think that you can do good by giving to government? Nope. You can't. You can give to charity. You can do charitable things. But you don't get absolution by doing good through the government.

I think you are trying to point out the inefficiencies of government's here? I agree, governments are inefficient and reforms need to be done on benefits to make them more means tested. Let's take my brother as an example however though. He has had a condition called ME since he was 13, this means he gets very tired very quickly, he couldn't even get out his bed for a couple of months at one point. The UK government has just declassified him as disabled and now he receives no benefits. He tries to get jobs and sometimes he lasts a couple of days and then collapses and can't do anything for weeks. He literally can't work in the jobs that are available right now in this economic climate.

So he can't get a job (He is still looking btw), he now receives no disability benefits and he doesn't even get tax breaks. Adding to the fact that our government recently changed the benefits system and fucked over a lot of poor people, how is he meant to survive? Who is meant to pay for his care? I know my parents won't be around forever. I also know that because ME isn't famous that the charities receive hardly any money. He has been so much worse since the benefit changes. Under the old system he was actually healthier, in fact he was able to do the occasional part time jobs.

So my message is, sometimes when no-one else can help, the government needs to step in.

The problem with liberals is that they are moral exhibitionists. Like you think that giving taxes is your duty. Good for you. Congratulations, your mentality is making our country poor. At least you helped people. That was nice.

You're right. I will happily pay taxes to help others. I also helped raise 13k for charity this year. I don't do it to try and be "better" than others are though. I believe in the heart of democracy, I truly wan't to make the world a better place for people.

Hating capitalism is such the easy thing to do. Like what do you hate about it? What can you possibly hate? Capitalism is the most perfect expression of freedom. Capitalism is the reason the so-called poor in the US can still afford to eat, own televisions (with Cable) and still support a cocaine habit. It's just so dumb to think that the poor in this country are worse off than in other countries. Especially if you consider how heterogeneous our population is.

It's better if you're poor in a rich country. What about the poor in Russia? Cant afford education, health care, cars, decent houses.

I'd be willing to bet, though, that the people who are employed by Jimmy Johns and Rush Limbaugh are way better off than those people helped by the government.

If you made half a million PROFIT then I hardly think you cannot afford giving anything to charity. Whatever happened to the TRUE American Dream? It's dead. It's all about wealth and material objects now. Not just the dream of a happy family together.

It seems that many people have forgotten where the word democracy came from. You know the greek meaning "Rule of the People"? That means the government should be this evil organisation that you all see it as, it should be doing what the people want it to do. Unfortunately this isn't the case.

Thanks all for the discussion.

 

[lukep]

Does anyone else find it ironic here that a bunch of Americans are arguing Capitalism v/s Socialism with a Britfag on July 4th?

I'll be writing a deeper response to this thread tonight, tea-pusher!

 

[sixthcutuan]

Lol I didn't even notice that. Strangely independence day isn't celebrated here?

It's 1.06 AM here so I probs won't answer until tomorrow. Look forward to it though, how's the Colony right now?

1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Who We Fought for Independence | NBC New York