Your Political Stance?

[jonas33h]

luke most liberals don't argue when they have only feelings and emotions to combat with you still haven't said anything about how we are supposed to raise funds for new medicine if we all got to free clinics and why tort reform isn't a big deal? this would be the third time I asked.... and what's so dumb about logic? don't be a moron no one in there right mind spends over 100k on the education to make 40k if you don't like the system and love socialism why not move to a country that also enjoys those same....

 

[jonas33h]

and you can't possibly be a fan of capitalism or you would understand that the free market would self adjust to the needs and wants of the people, it's a mechanism called the invisible hand, but when people throw in government it just fucks things up... name ONE thing the government has done that is a success.... S.S?, Medicare?, Medicaid?, Obamacare (which isn't expected to curb pricingin the least but put more of a burden on taxpayers), the housing crisis? the bailout? where is a good example of government having the answer?

 

[lukep]

In which case I'm correct. You don't go there just for medical tourism which is what you claimed.

M'kay, yeah, you must be right then. Surely I said somewhere that I ONLY travel to London and Bangkok for medicine... Yeah, that sounds like something I'd say... Right? :error:

C'mon, samegeneric, you gotta admit... You went a bit off the deep end there with that one.

We're both capitalists, remember? Let's be brothers again. I just can't get a dozen different drugs here that the FDA won't allow to be sold here, even though they are totally awesome and available everywhere BUT here.

For instance, look deep into topical skincare creams and ointments.

If you dig you'll find that in Europe, especially Switzerland, they sell boatloads of different creams to cure all kinds of conditions... From pain relief all the way up to cancer treatments... Many conditions not having anything to do with the skin itself... Liver issues, for instance... And in many cases these creams CURE, not relieve the problem.

...Yet the FDA simply won't let them be sold here. Why? They work too well for Big Pharma to appreciate.

Anyway, what I do not like about our system's healthcare (NOT Capitalism itself, just the current US version of Healthcare) is that such treatments don't come here. You gotta go to them. Big Pharma has a VERY unfair monopoly with their ex-lobbiest as head of the FDA here... That makes all the difference in the world, and if they didn't have such a stranglehold on Washington you wouldn't hear me praising the joys of Brit healthcare today.

...Except perhaps that their doctors really are smarter...

 

[TheCheesePolice]

Again, LukeP, the US health care system isn't a free market system.

 

[jonas33h]

M'kay, yeah, you must be right then. Surely I said somewhere that I ONLY travel to London and Bangkok for medicine... Yeah, that sounds like something I'd say... Right? :error:

C'mon, samegeneric, you gotta admit... You went a bit off the deep end there with that one.

We're both capitalists, remember? Let's be brothers again. I just can't get a dozen different drugs here that the FDA won't allow to be sold here, even though they are totally awesome and available everywhere BUT here.

For instance, look deep into topical skincare creams and ointments.

If you dig you'll find that in Europe, especially Switzerland, they sell boatloads of different creams to cure all kinds of conditions... From pain relief all the way up to cancer treatments... Many conditions not having anything to do with the skin itself... Liver issues, for instance... And in many cases these creams CURE, not relieve the problem.

...Yet the FDA simply won't let them be sold here. Why? They work too well for Big Pharma to appreciate.

Anyway, what I do not like about our system's healthcare (NOT Capitalism itself, just the current US version of Healthcare) is that such treatments don't come here. You gotta go to them. Big Pharma has a VERY unfair monopoly with their ex-lobbiest as head of the FDA here... That makes all the difference in the world, and if they didn't have such a stranglehold on Washington you wouldn't hear me praising the joys of Brit healthcare today.

...Except perhaps that their doctors really are smarter...

i actually agree with most of that... i just don't understand how on one hand someone totally supports full government intervention on health care then slams the FDA

GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!!

Sure you need regulations but they cross the line more often than not by limiting what can and can't be done... if my Dr. makes a recommendation on something and thinks it would help should you be able to use said medicine or get said operation if he thinks it will cure you or relieve symptoms

 

[lukep]

Why am I being targeted as if I said I want obamacare or something? I'm a (somewhat libertarian) capitalist, people! Ask any socialist and they'll let you know that in a heartbeat.

luke most liberals don't argue when they have only feelings and emotions to combat with you still haven't said anything about how we are supposed to raise funds for new medicine if we all got to free clinics and why tort reform isn't a big deal? this would be the third time I asked...

Alright Jonas, since you seem to care about this subject I'll try to read through your phone-typing and give you a fair response.

The problem here is that I'm a capitalist, not to be confused with a liberal at all, who is not calling for any changes to the US healthcare system other than removing the POWER of big pharma from Washington DC.

You keep adressing me as if I were a flaming liberal and it's a bit maddening. Please do us both a HUGE favor and go back in this thread from this post and start reading up to date... You'll see that you're arguing with the wrong person here.

Again, LukeP, the US health care system isn't a free market system.

Ahh, now I see where I said that... Couldn't find it the first time you mentioned this.

Yes, you are of course right; the US healthcare system has been a hybrid system since FDR. When I said that I was speaking to a Scot and comparing it to his market though... Didn't choose my words carefully enough.

Ironically, it's the American health care system that is the least free one I've ever seen. Big pharma has such an Iron grip on this country it suprises me every day that we're not in little tubes generating energy for them like in the matrix.

We PAY more for healthcare as a nation than any other:

Yet we don't have the best educated doctors... Nor do we have access to many of the best pharms... Nor is it free for everyone to get healthcare...

And even if they did, they may want to turn it down:

The CIA World Factbook ranked the United States 41st in the world for infant mortality rate, 46th for total life expectancy, & preventable deaths declined more slowly in the United States than in 18 other industrialized nations...

It's fucking depressing how bad our medicine is here!

Travel and you shall see.

So WHY are we getting such a bad return on our investment?

Because it's a hybrid system.

Capitalism and Socialism can both work independently, but together they suck. We need to pick one and go with it.

...And yes, in case I have to spell it out for those of you with a nanosecond attention span; I choose Capitalism for America.

 

[jonas33h]

I think we are in agreeance (i know it's not a word i just like it) for the most part then.... i am going to leave with two quotes that some up my belief on the health care system and politics in general


"Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government."

you can throw in lobbyist in with government on that as well for the most part they too are all worthless and only add to the headache of already complex situations.

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand."

Milton Friedman

 

[hellblazer]

Why do people keep mentioning infant mortality rate and life expectancy as if that is any good barometer of a healthcare system? It's well known that infant mortality measuring methods are vastly different in different countries, and life expectancy numbers can be influenced by tons of things unrelated to healthcare.

 

[jonas33h]

^ healthy babies=good health
long life=good health

maybe these things are tied to health care ?

just takin a stab in the dark

 

[hellblazer]

Take a look at how Cuba calculates infant mortality, then try to formulate an intelligent thought.

 

[jonas33h]

you hate black people that seems intelligent

 

[hellblazer]

I'm a retard that can't follow a logical argument

So in other words you have no idea how Cuba calculates infant mortality, or how that would affect the real numbers if the U.S. used the same methodology.

 

[jonas33h]

I am a gay jewish muslim.... so I don't see how thats true

don't try and drag people down because of your twisted views fucknut

 

[sixthcutuan]

Why am I being targeted as if I said I want obamacare or something? I'm a (somewhat libertarian) capitalist, people! Ask any socialist and they'll let you know that in a heartbeat.

Don't worry, i'm back.

luke most liberals don't argue when they have only feelings and emotions to combat with you still haven't said anything about how we are supposed to raise funds for new medicine if we all got to free clinics and why tort reform isn't a big deal? this would be the third time I asked.... and what's so dumb about logic? don't be a moron no one in there right mind spends over 100k on the education to make 40k if you don't like the system and love socialism why not move to a country that also enjoys those same....

Check out GlaxoSmithKline. Huge medicine company here, third biggest in the world, that provides the NHS with a lot of different, WORKING medicines.

and you can't possibly be a fan of capitalism or you would understand that the free market would self adjust to the needs and wants of the people, it's a mechanism called the invisible hand,

The laws of supply and demand work great until you get market failure. The current one in the US is a oligopoly, this means they try and charge the fuck out of everything.

but when people throw in government it just fucks things up... name ONE thing the government has done that is a success.... S.S?, Medicare?, Medicaid?, Obamacare (which isn't expected to curb pricingin the least but put more of a burden on taxpayers), the housing crisis? the bailout? where is a good example of government having the answer?

Depends which government. The NHS, Housing reform, seperation of the Bank of England, Joining the EU, the list goes on and on. Whoa wait a minute? Seems like the socialist country has been making better political choices? Perhaps it is to do with the corruption in US government.

Ironically, it's the American health care system that is the least free one I've ever seen. Big pharma has such an Iron grip on this country it suprises me every day that we're not in little tubes generating energy for them like in the matrix.

So WHY are we getting such a bad return on our investment?

Market failure. Where capitalism really doesnt work.

I am a gay jewish muslim.... so I don't see how thats true

don't try and drag people down because of your twisted views fucknut

This for hellblazer.

 

[jonas33h]

If socialism worked so great why did the US bail Europe out look into we gave you lots of cash

 

[jonas33h]

^ man that was weak

 

[sixthcutuan]

If socialism worked so great why did the US bail Europe out look into we gave you lots of cash

It doesn't work fantastically. No system does, communism, socialist, capitalism or fascism.

Anyway remember that some countries in Europe are doing great, such as Germany, while others such as Greece are not. Lastly you need to also remember that most of the US market relies on Europe.

 

[jonas33h]

Yeah I had weak argument not going to lie lol I just got served but I will say this anything restricting individual rights is lame That's why capitalism always wins in my book

 

[sixthcutuan]

Yeah I had weak argument not going to lie lol I just got served but I will say this anything restricting individual rights is lame That's why capitalism always wins in my book

I love freedoms too. It's just that in capitalism often the people who end up at the bottom, usually through no fault of their own such as unfortunate circumstances, are not free because their lack of money is holding them in chains. I hope you understand the point i'm trying to put across, basically you can fall in a trap that ends up in a vicious cycle. You need education to get a good job BUT you can't afford good education. Some people get stuck like this.

 

[lukep]

I love freedoms too. It's just that in capitalism often the people who end up at the bottom, usually through no fault of their own such as unfortunate circumstances, are not free because their lack of money is holding them in chains.

I hope I don't sound like an insensitive jerk when I say this; keep in mind my upbringing within the system you are speaking of...

But I simply think that capitalism's shortcoming of keeping the ppl on the bottom down is less evil & less harmful to the overall economy than socialism's opposite shortcoming of stopping the people who work the hardest from being free.

In a totally capitalistic society, (not the shitty hybrid I live in) every citizen would KNOW they aren't going to be taken care of and every parent would therefore Know to do a better job raising their kids and would of course be Forced to choose their schools instead of this daycare-like situation we have now ensuring they get the worse possible education. Education would not be free, but it would be of far higher quality because competition would drive it.

-So there would be very few people slipping between the cracks. Everyone would be far better educated and only very sad cases like mental handicaps and orphaning of children would stop this cycle once it gets started.

So yeah, some ppl who have had an unfortunate time would slide down the crack and disappear if charities are not set up to help them. (Which I am very sure they would be.)

But overall these sad cases are going to be far fewer than how it works now with all of our incentives to lure them down there.

Bottom line: Since no one has ever seen a true capitalist society yet, it's silly to fear what would happen to the unfortunate in it... We don't know. -We do know however that most people would support a charity to help them because we are all emotional humans, so it would seem they'll get more help in a true capitalist society than your fears have spoken of.

Market failure. Where capitalism really doesn't work.

Though there is no reason for it to ever fail if we stop bankrupting the system with socialistic programs like medicare, obamacare, social security, and especially welfare.