Going Vegan

[brandonbaker]

You can't seriously be this stupid. Humans through our evolution never ate our young. It is not natural for humans to eat their young- therefore we do not do it.

You made a claim earlier that "animals eat other animals," as a kind of justification for human beings eating other animals.

Lions eat babies. Should that makes it OK for humans to eat babies? Your "naturalistic" argument falls flat because we can't base human behavior on what other animals do because animals in the wild are atrociously amoral. Not immoral, amoral.

 

[nickycakes]

A very large chunk of the Indian subcontinent is vegan. They're fucking like rabbits and there's no stopping them.

And how can you explain this group of poor, malnourished people?

I already explained it. They put significantly more effort into not dying than the rest of us.

 

[cardine]

You made a claim earlier that "animals eat other animals," as a kind of justification for human beings eating other animals.

Lions eat babies. Should that makes it OK for humans to eat babies? Your "naturalistic" argument falls flat because we can't base human behavior on what other animals do because animals in the wild are atrociously amoral. Not immoral, amoral.

If you think other animals are amoral you should really stop right now because you are talking out of your ass.

Please go educate yourself on animal behavior before spewing a bunch of BS as if it were true.

 

[papajohn56]

So are you against killing rats, ants, or flies because that violates their autonomy?

Have you asked a cow what they want to do and have they ever told you that they don't want to be safe from predators and have a steady supply of food and water? I possibly might need to defer this question to mpbiz, since after all he is the communications expert.

Early day in the office?

 

[brandonbaker]

So are you against killing rats, ants, or flies because that violates their autonomy?

It's a gradient, morality isn't black and white. Stealing isn't quite as wrong as killing, but they're both wrong, right?

The same applies to killing animals. Killing human beings is worse than killing a cow because humans have a higher degree of autonomy than any other mammal (in all likelihood). Killing a cow is worse than killing an ant.

I don't mind swatting flies because the degree of autonomy and "choice" that insects have is probably negligible, so I can't bother myself with them.

It's like the word "adult." We know that a 4 year old isn't an adult, and a 60 year old is. But the line in between is always going to be arbitrary. That doesn't mean that, because there is arbitrariness, that we should throw away the entire thing altogether.

Killing cows, in my opinion, is definitely wrong. Ants, eh, not so much. And that's directly a result of the core of what makes something right or wrong, which I believe to be the restriction of autonomy.

Have you asked a cow what they want to do and have they ever told you that they don't want to be safe from predators and have a steady supply of food and water? I possibly might need to defer this question to mpbiz, since after all he is the communications expert.

Have you ever been in a slaughterhouse and seen the reaction of pigs as they're let off the truck and they hear the squeals of other pigs being slaughtered? They're not exactly itching to go in.

 

[mgtarheels]

He already did. We are designed to eat meat and animal products. If you don't do so, it takes a very significant effort to not die from malnutrition.

Designed to eat meat? Care to elaborate?

Thought it was the opposite.

 

[papajohn56]

Killing cows, in my opinion, is definitely wrong. Ants, eh, not so much.

So you're a hypocrite.

 

[brandonbaker]

Where do you think our morality came from, if not from evolution and the 'wild'? If there was an evolutionary advantage to eating our young, we would do it and think it is moral to do so.

Look at the history of our country and tell me that we've always sided on what is evolutionarily in our advantage. The strong dominated the weak for hundreds of years and then we eventually woke up to the fact that the white man isn't the only being out there that deserves a fair chance.

Our basic morality derives from the wild but modern society is so astronomically different from those days that we use that basic moral system for completely non-evolutionary purposes.

I can't beat a dog in the United States or I risk getting thrown in jail. This stems from our evolutionary past in that we were sympathetic to other HUMANS, and we're applying that same basic sympathetic principle to dogs.

What I'm saying is that cows and pigs deserve the same exact moral consideration that we extend to dogs.

 

[cardine]

Early day in the office?

Actually just got home. Have to keep a semi-normal sleep schedule with the new intern and SMX later this week.

After SMX I'll be back to waking up at 10pm as if it was normal.

 

[mgtarheels]

Look at the history of our country and tell me that we've always sided on what is evolutionarily in our advantage. The strong dominated the weak for hundreds of years and then we eventually woke up to the fact that the white man isn't the only being out there that deserves a fair chance.

Our basic morality derives from the wild but modern society is so astronomically different from those days that we use that basic moral system for completely non-evolutionary purposes.

I can't beat a dog in the United States or I risk getting thrown in jail. This stems from our evolutionary past in that we were sympathetic to other HUMANS, and we're applying that same basic sympathetic principle to dogs.

What I'm saying is that cows and pigs deserve the same exact moral consideration that we extend to dogs.

Whites were the first slaves, fyi.

 

[advive]

So if you're a vegan for ethical reasons what's wrong with milk and eggs?

 

[brandonbaker]

There is no double standard. Beating cows with lead pipes for no reason is NOT standard practice. Dogs and cats are killed by the thousands every day by animal shelters, etc, which serves no purpose. We kill cows every day and put them to good use. What the shit are you even talking about?

It's not standard practice by law, [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Slaughterhouse-Shocking-Inhumane-Treatment-Industry/dp/1591024501/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338786000&sr=1-3"]but read an investigative journalists' account of slaughterhouses in this country[/ame] and you'll see that what is written in the lawbooks and what actually happens in those slaughterhouses are two completely different things.

 

[brandonbaker]

I already explained it. They put significantly more effort into not dying than the rest of us.

Who? Celebrities?

 

[nickycakes]

I can't beat a dog in the United States or I risk getting thrown in jail. This stems from our evolutionary past in that we were sympathetic to other HUMANS, and we're applying that same basic sympathetic principle to dogs.

What I'm saying is that cows and pigs deserve the same exact moral consideration that we extend to dogs.

We don't beat cows and pigs to death.

Also, you're a retard.

(This isn't ad-hominem, because I am not calling you a retard as to invalidate your point. I was nearly a logic minor in college.)

 

[nickycakes]

Who? Celebrities?

Vegans, retard.

 

[brandonbaker]

If you think other animals are amoral you should really stop right now because you are talking out of your ass.

Please go educate yourself on animal behavior before spewing a bunch of BS as if it were true.

It depends on the animal. Some animals are very moralistic. I did a summer internship with capuchin monkeys at Yale and they are often moralistic, often completely amoral. Chimps tend to be more moralistic, and some animals are completely amoral.

It depends. Which is precisely my point. We can't base our behavior on the behavior of animals in the wild because it's completely chaotic.

 

[cardine]

Look at the history of our country and tell me that we've always sided on what is evolutionarily in our advantage. The strong dominated the weak for hundreds of years and then we eventually woke up to the fact that the white man isn't the only being out there that deserves a fair chance.

Our basic morality derives from the wild but modern society is so astronomically different from those days that we use that basic moral system for completely non-evolutionary purposes.

I can't beat a dog in the United States or I risk getting thrown in jail. This stems from our evolutionary past in that we were sympathetic to other HUMANS, and we're applying that same basic sympathetic principle to dogs.

What I'm saying is that cows and pigs deserve the same exact moral consideration that we extend to dogs.

In our evolutionary past, dogs gave us the most utility by helping us hunt for food. Pigs and cows gave us the most utility by being food.

That is the only reason for the difference in our behavior towards both.

 

[brandonbaker]

So you're a hypocrite.

No, for the reasons I explained in the post that you conveniently cherry-picked.

 

[brandonbaker]

So if you're a vegan for ethical reasons what's wrong with milk and eggs?

Dairy farms have to keep cows lactating year round to be able to produce the greatest amount of milk for the least amount of cost. And if you know anything about human biology, cow biology is no different. When does a woman lactate? When she's pregnant. It's an extremely unnatural lifestyle to live.

Ensuing male newborns (bulls) are discarded as they're basically useless to the dairy industry. Females are used for their milk and the process begins all over again.

Calves are stripped from their mothers at a very early age, which causes them obvious emotional stress. A good portion of those calves are then used for veal, which is made by keeping a baby calf enclosed in a tiny square crate, shackled at the ankles. Restricting movement helps to keep the meat tender. The calf barely moves her entire life. And gets slaughtered at the end of it.

Eggs are a complete mess, but the gist of it is this: hens are often kept in cages so tight that they can barely lift a single wing, and they're fattened up so unnaturally that they die at extremely young ages and live their entire lives as egg-laying machines.

If we raised our dogs the way factory farms raise their chickens, we'd be sent to jail pretty quick.

I'm sparing everyone the images.

 

[brandonbaker]

We don't beat cows and pigs to death.

My point was pretty simple but I'll reword it for you: we can't systematically slaughter dogs in this country or else we put ourselves at risk of being thrown in jail for animal cruelty. My point is that cows and pigs are equally intelligent and sentient as dogs (especially pigs), but the term "animal cruelty" as applies to cows and pigs is completely different for no apparent reason other than "we want to."

And if you don't think we beat animals in slaughterhouses, you're mistaken.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDea6L9gPD8]Meet your meat - The transformation of animals into food - YouTube[/ame]