Oh I get it now. Troll.
It's like when the Soviet air force used to scramble Backfire bombers over the North Pole to how fast the NORAD fiighter could intercept.
This is like a test to see how fast the mods can ban Warrior Ted.
I have clients now. Fuck. Advice?
- Thread starter EricVonDoobie
- Start date
Oh I get it now. Troll.
It's like when the Soviet air force used to scramble Backfire bombers over the North Pole to how fast the NORAD fiighter could intercept.
This is like a test to see how fast the mods can ban Warrior Ted.
I would look into buying traffic, + the seo work if that is what they want.
So they can see right away traffic and people coming to the site. If of course your going for a big keyword.
Buying traffic can tell them if they can make a profit with X amount of visitors per day, then say the G and other search engines.. Give X amount on average for X keyword at position 1-3.. something like this.
In other news:
Wall Street struggles to find Facebook's worth
So they can see right away traffic and people coming to the site. If of course your going for a big keyword.
Buying traffic can tell them if they can make a profit with X amount of visitors per day, then say the G and other search engines.. Give X amount on average for X keyword at position 1-3.. something like this.
In other news:
Wall Street struggles to find Facebook's worth
Who doesn't have full control over their business? If you "own" a business the sheer definition of the word "own" means you control your business. Client work being a "bad idea" is your personal opinion. Everyone has their personal preferences and comfort zones in regards to how they make money. I think it's a great idea, because I can have $0 in my bank account, no list, no website, and still make money today with offline work. Then re-invest what I earn offline into what I want to do online.
As far as charging $1500 for something that costs $350. That mat be true for you. You probably have a good grasp of SEO concepts and know how to make SEO work for $350. What your not considering is most offline business know nothing about SEO or web design or PPC or whatever service you'd offer them. So, it'd cost them more because they'd be winging it an inevitable they'd screw up. Your also not accounting for what keywords their going after which depending on it's competitiveness can end up costing much more than $350.
But, to sum up what I'm saying. Anything that you can make money doing that large corporations also make money doing is worth pursuing. Long after your chosen online money making method inevitable fizzles out you'll still have sites like topseos loaded with multi-million dollar companies selling online consulting services. The internet isn't going anywhere and businesses need for the internet is only going to continuine to grow. Placing yourself in front of that need is just a flat out smart move.
Damn sorry, I forgot to add advice.
You really do need to get 50% up front. Even if it's your Mom. Hell, especially if it's your Mom. So many people are serious about building a website until it's time to put money on the table then watch the clowns take centre stage.
It's like building a website in cyberspace is not... really real. So the money to pay you is not really real either.
You really do need to get 50% up front. Even if it's your Mom. Hell, especially if it's your Mom. So many people are serious about building a website until it's time to put money on the table then watch the clowns take centre stage.
It's like building a website in cyberspace is not... really real. So the money to pay you is not really real either.
the easiest way to get money up front (some clients might think you don't trust them, which could be true, but) is to tell them it's for cash flow reasons. You have costs, they need to be covered. Payment comes before work always.
This isn't always possible ... but pre-screen your clients.
And never be afraid to turn them down. Really make some qualifications for your clients ... i.e to use my services you must
-be making x amount per month
-agree to my process / milestones
-understand all revisions come at extra cost
just some vague examples ... but I think 90% of client work, is picking the clients worth working with ... and not bothering with the ones who are not.
1 good client is worth maybe 10 mediocre ones ... like some people say ... there are awesome clients out there, when you get them it's so win-win you can hardly believe yourself.
I find the shittier clients come with lower end jobs anyways ... better to price your shit up and go for people who have money, instead of people looking to just make some.
And never be afraid to turn them down. Really make some qualifications for your clients ... i.e to use my services you must
-be making x amount per month
-agree to my process / milestones
-understand all revisions come at extra cost
just some vague examples ... but I think 90% of client work, is picking the clients worth working with ... and not bothering with the ones who are not.
1 good client is worth maybe 10 mediocre ones ... like some people say ... there are awesome clients out there, when you get them it's so win-win you can hardly believe yourself.
I find the shittier clients come with lower end jobs anyways ... better to price your shit up and go for people who have money, instead of people looking to just make some.
- Set a minimum monthly fee, don't get involved with anything too small or it is a waste of time.
- Don't get involved unless you know you will give them a good ROI. Its always more work at first so no point working with someone who will be short term. You want to be able to help grow their business so the contract will increase in future.
- Don't get involved unless you know you will give them a good ROI. Its always more work at first so no point working with someone who will be short term. You want to be able to help grow their business so the contract will increase in future.
ITT a bunch of past, current and potential new clients advising me to charge them more and to collect everything upfront.
Lettuce be cereal though... loads of great advice in here. I don't really have much to add other than what has already been said.
Get everything you can in writing, VonDoobles!
Lettuce be cereal though... loads of great advice in here. I don't really have much to add other than what has already been said.
Get everything you can in writing, VonDoobles!
I REALLY wish that I was not so busy today because I'd love to help you out... Skype/PM me anytime if you're in a sticky situation or otherwise need advice.
The most important ingredient in healthy client relationships is realistic expectations.
Be clear with yourself how much work you'll dedicate per month/period per client.
Be clear with yourself regarding profit margins, etc.
Three months are paid up-front. Always. Explain to them that because results (I'm talking about SEO) require 3 months, a 3 month commitment is required as well.
They aren't just picking you - you're picking them.
Do the math - will this decision be profitable for them? If it won't be, don't work with them. It's a waste of everyone's time and money.
Your price is based on the greater of the two: (1) the value you add to their business and (2) your costs.
If (2) is greater, see the "Do the math" part above and don't work with them.
The most important ingredient in healthy client relationships is realistic expectations.
Oh, and don't haphazardly sprinkle your clients' sites with the same spamdust you powder your MFAs and otherwise bullshit sites with. Their business is their baby and they can't just buy a new domain and transfer it all over like you can. I've made this mistake and it blows.
On that note, reputation is king.
Good luck - successful and enjoyable client-contractor dynamics are extremely rewarding.
The most important ingredient in healthy client relationships is realistic expectations.
Be clear with yourself how much work you'll dedicate per month/period per client.
Be clear with yourself regarding profit margins, etc.
Three months are paid up-front. Always. Explain to them that because results (I'm talking about SEO) require 3 months, a 3 month commitment is required as well.
They aren't just picking you - you're picking them.
Do the math - will this decision be profitable for them? If it won't be, don't work with them. It's a waste of everyone's time and money.
Your price is based on the greater of the two: (1) the value you add to their business and (2) your costs.
If (2) is greater, see the "Do the math" part above and don't work with them.
The most important ingredient in healthy client relationships is realistic expectations.
Oh, and don't haphazardly sprinkle your clients' sites with the same spamdust you powder your MFAs and otherwise bullshit sites with. Their business is their baby and they can't just buy a new domain and transfer it all over like you can. I've made this mistake and it blows.
On that note, reputation is king.
Good luck - successful and enjoyable client-contractor dynamics are extremely rewarding.
But???
No. No but.
Before you learn how to say "no", you need to learn that it's okay to say "no".
You don't want to do this work, so do not do this work.
The noise you hear from people clamoring for websites is usually just noise anyway. Don't let it distract you. (from your video games)
If you're relying on another company (Google) to rank another company's site (your client), then you don't have full control over your business.
No, it doesn't. Owning != control of variables.
Great. I shared mine. And you're welcome to share yours. Not sure where you're even going with this.
Nothing here contradicts what I said.
There are a million ways to help companies grow online. One of them is through having clients, another is going the SEOmoz route and creating software. Another is selling digital products (eBooks). Another is selling physical products (books). Another is selling to other SEOs (like our BST section). Another is providing SEO consulting (as opposed to SEO services).
My point to the OP is that there are tons of ways to make bank online, and in my opinion, having clients is by far the most stressful of them all because it relies on the most unforeseen, uncontrollable factors.
And as g1c9 said, it's one thing to see your shitty MFA site tank from #1 to #1000. It's quite another to watch your client's website tank through no fault of your own. What ranks today won't always rank tomorrow, and as a service provider you need to be prepared to tell your client that rankings are not guaranteed to hold for any length of time. It's a tough pill to watch someone else swallow.
You seem very anti-seo and I can understand that on top of the Penguin crap, but doesn't all businesses carry risks with unforeseen events? If you write a book (not fiction), someone else may write a better book 1 day after yours and you won't get any sales. If you create software, it becomes obsolote very fast if you don't update and maintain it. Membership sites require similar constant being at the front. Relying on any single form of income is risky. Diversification has to be key. It's good to know at least that you can sell your time if you really hit rock bottom. As much as I dislike it, those SEOMoz guys with all their branding are not going to run out of opportunities. In these uncertain times, I would say a personal blog is probably a smart investment even if you don't sell anything at the moment. Your personal brand is much less likely to suffer from a Google update. Yes, I realize this sounds like something out of Warrior Forum, but the difference is in being the real deal and not a pretender.
I do none of those things though. Affiliate marketing and SEO all the way, milk it until it's dry and best month ever after the Penguin. Hope to grow exponentially for the next 6-12 months, then brand myself along the way, then launch some kind of hyped SEO service starting at $1500 backlinking only.
Yes, but I like to be in control of my assets. When you rely solely on SEO, you aren't in control of your assets (your ranking).
And I'm not anti-SEO in the slightest, I just don't like relying on another company to win my bread.
Right, but in both of these scenarios, you own your asset. You don't have to worry about your book ever being stripped away from you overnight. If someone writes a better one, then release an update to yours to make it even better. Competition is a healthy problem to have.
When your main asset is your #1 rank, how do you recover from getting slapped? You start over. This isn't a healthy problem, IMO.
This is why I'd much sooner start an SEO consultancy than an SEO services company. With consulting, your greatest asset is your knowledge and your time. No one will ever take these away from you, and if someone offers a superior product, just improve yours and voila.
An SEO services company has to rely on Google to keep their clients happy. I'd rather rely on my own brain than on someone else's ever-changing algorithm.
But see this is what I'm talking about. When you have clients, you're constantly at the whim of every Google update. Who wants that kind of stress?
I'd rather a) rank my own sites, and b) provide people the requisite tools to rank theirs rather than have to rank them myself.
Best of luck with this--really. But I was also in your shoes and eventually realized that, for me, I'm much happier without a company to oversee and clients to keep satisfied, and without having to check MSM every day/week to make sure I don't be getting any angry calls from clients who may have dropped in the ranks.
This is all my personal opinion. There must be plenty of companies managing 100+ happy SEO clients. I can understand this being possible maybe 3-4 years ago, but in today's SEO climate with Google on the aggressive against any manipulative SEO, I'll pass.
There's some very solid info in here. I think the most important thing is to make sure you have a clearly written agreement on the work to be performed, because it helps avoid issues later on. Simply agreeing to do SEO work for someone is not enough. Because you'll have them bugging you every day about why their rankings aren't going up, when they have zero knowledge about SEO. Its easy to get consumed by clients.
Research the potential clients niche. Only take the clients you have determined you can profit from directly. This will be through your own properties you are going to build simultaneously.
Charge well beyond what it takes to satisfy the agreed upon goals for the clients website. This funds all of the research, domains, hosting, content, links etc. for your properties also. Always own all of the pumper sites. Split juice from tier 1 & 2's between their money site and the one your are developing for yourself. Deliver the rankings to the clients website they paid for.
You provide the hosting for the client. Always get minimum of 1 year upfront 2 preferably. This gives you more control and a psychological advantage when the client knows they have prepaid well into the future.
Monthly billing is auto debited. Only invoice for what was beyond the scope of the agreement. If this happens more than twice, up the monthly retainer. Keep manual billing to non existent. Fuck PayPal, Square and any other merchant service. Clients are to spend 5 mins and get setup on Dwolla. Cost per $1,000 goes from $30.00 plus to twenty-five cents.
The client may own their domain / website and little else. You control the juice you control the client. First hint of trouble turn the tap off. Amazing how this changes the dynamics of the relationship.
The client has totally financed the development of all your assets that make you an authority in the niche. You have the option with your properties to 301, sell leads, advertising, flip your money site, etc.
If local, after the client has funded your research and properties take the winning recipe and monetize directly in other cities.
If your clients are attempting to rank locally and your background is strictly national / international you are about to have your hat handed to you with Google Places.
Charge well beyond what it takes to satisfy the agreed upon goals for the clients website. This funds all of the research, domains, hosting, content, links etc. for your properties also. Always own all of the pumper sites. Split juice from tier 1 & 2's between their money site and the one your are developing for yourself. Deliver the rankings to the clients website they paid for.
You provide the hosting for the client. Always get minimum of 1 year upfront 2 preferably. This gives you more control and a psychological advantage when the client knows they have prepaid well into the future.
Monthly billing is auto debited. Only invoice for what was beyond the scope of the agreement. If this happens more than twice, up the monthly retainer. Keep manual billing to non existent. Fuck PayPal, Square and any other merchant service. Clients are to spend 5 mins and get setup on Dwolla. Cost per $1,000 goes from $30.00 plus to twenty-five cents.
The client may own their domain / website and little else. You control the juice you control the client. First hint of trouble turn the tap off. Amazing how this changes the dynamics of the relationship.
The client has totally financed the development of all your assets that make you an authority in the niche. You have the option with your properties to 301, sell leads, advertising, flip your money site, etc.
If local, after the client has funded your research and properties take the winning recipe and monetize directly in other cities.
If your clients are attempting to rank locally and your background is strictly national / international you are about to have your hat handed to you with Google Places.
Several people have said it but it's worth repeating: don't undervalue your time, especially if you have a good thing going on your own, and don't confuse friends, family, and business.
When I first started taking IM seriously ~18 months ago I built & ranked my first set of sites, ran split tests, analyzed traffic, etc. to learn the ropes. After that I took on a couple clients at a time over the next six months while building more of my own assets before calling it quits with clients altogether (except one who is that 1% of clients that is awesome to work for, trusts my work, and lets me make his company money without being douchey).
Client 1: wanted to compete with megamillion dollar companies for 250k exact buying keywords at $500/month. I knew I was fucking myself but I was hungry for experience. A net loss for me over three or four months between money and time. But I did rank the shit out of his site for a couple money words. It was an important learning experience for many reasons.
Client 2: brick and mortar business, local terms, low competition. $1k up front + $1k/month for three months. Easy money, dramatically improved their bottom line.
Client 5: was running a shitty adwords campaign and getting nowhere. Has a great product in a rising niche. $2k up front + $1750/month for six months. Included revamping ppc + comprehensive long term seo campaign. Took his company from low five figures to low six figures inside of a year.
Client 8: lawyer, local terms, mid competition. $5k up front + $1000/month for three months. Easy money. They're happy little lawyers in their overstuffed couches on the top floor of their downtown highrise. Yay.
That was the last client work I accepted. The money was pretty good and getting better once I got the hang of things. I was new to the industry and working for clients was a good way to grow up fast, which is a major reason I did it.
I stopped ultimately because I don't want to make other people money, and even more important, I don't want to spend time focusing on topics that don't interest me. It got to the point where it was difficult to focus on my clients' work because I was plotting and scheming my next moves with my own sites.
It's true what other posters have said. If you do it, keep raising your prices. People will pay and if they don't you don't want them as clients.
The one thing I did do with every client is stay relatively white hat and focused on building their brands before anything else and they have all fared well through the last six months of algo changes. That does matter to me. I like knowing that my work makes a lasting change for the better.
$.02
When I first started taking IM seriously ~18 months ago I built & ranked my first set of sites, ran split tests, analyzed traffic, etc. to learn the ropes. After that I took on a couple clients at a time over the next six months while building more of my own assets before calling it quits with clients altogether (except one who is that 1% of clients that is awesome to work for, trusts my work, and lets me make his company money without being douchey).
Client 1: wanted to compete with megamillion dollar companies for 250k exact buying keywords at $500/month. I knew I was fucking myself but I was hungry for experience. A net loss for me over three or four months between money and time. But I did rank the shit out of his site for a couple money words. It was an important learning experience for many reasons.
Client 2: brick and mortar business, local terms, low competition. $1k up front + $1k/month for three months. Easy money, dramatically improved their bottom line.
Client 5: was running a shitty adwords campaign and getting nowhere. Has a great product in a rising niche. $2k up front + $1750/month for six months. Included revamping ppc + comprehensive long term seo campaign. Took his company from low five figures to low six figures inside of a year.
Client 8: lawyer, local terms, mid competition. $5k up front + $1000/month for three months. Easy money. They're happy little lawyers in their overstuffed couches on the top floor of their downtown highrise. Yay.
That was the last client work I accepted. The money was pretty good and getting better once I got the hang of things. I was new to the industry and working for clients was a good way to grow up fast, which is a major reason I did it.
I stopped ultimately because I don't want to make other people money, and even more important, I don't want to spend time focusing on topics that don't interest me. It got to the point where it was difficult to focus on my clients' work because I was plotting and scheming my next moves with my own sites.
It's true what other posters have said. If you do it, keep raising your prices. People will pay and if they don't you don't want them as clients.
The one thing I did do with every client is stay relatively white hat and focused on building their brands before anything else and they have all fared well through the last six months of algo changes. That does matter to me. I like knowing that my work makes a lasting change for the better.
$.02
Eric,
I have you on skype. Hit me up up if you ever want to shoot the shit.
I just landed my first client as well. $300 one time fee. Right now my business is all about supplying the template. I don't customize anything more than some icons, page titles, content, colors etc.
Clients know they are getting a basic template and get to choose from 5 different ones. My problem is figuring out how to squeeze that rebill money out of my clients.
I don't have the capital or time right now to build out a team of ppc management experts. The only idea that sounds appealing right now is to sell my leads/setup a coreg with other companies/sites that do the SEO, PPC management, etc.
The REAL question here is how do we scale this shit? I want to hit reachlocal and orangesoda status. I don't want to run my city, I want to monetize the globe.
Have any of you guys been able to fully outsource web design on a massive scale? Like build a 60 man team over in the philippines? How do I pay these guys? How do I manage them?
If any of you have actually done this then please hit me up.
I have you on skype. Hit me up up if you ever want to shoot the shit.
I just landed my first client as well. $300 one time fee. Right now my business is all about supplying the template. I don't customize anything more than some icons, page titles, content, colors etc.
Clients know they are getting a basic template and get to choose from 5 different ones. My problem is figuring out how to squeeze that rebill money out of my clients.
I don't have the capital or time right now to build out a team of ppc management experts. The only idea that sounds appealing right now is to sell my leads/setup a coreg with other companies/sites that do the SEO, PPC management, etc.
The REAL question here is how do we scale this shit? I want to hit reachlocal and orangesoda status. I don't want to run my city, I want to monetize the globe.
Have any of you guys been able to fully outsource web design on a massive scale? Like build a 60 man team over in the philippines? How do I pay these guys? How do I manage them?
If any of you have actually done this then please hit me up.
Add visitor statistics to the dashboard. Right next to them place an ad for your SEO (rebill) services.
Depending on your conversion rate you might even be able to offer free websites for local businesses. Would be worth a test I guess.