So when it comes to doctor/dentist/biz owners, do you think the 3 price points you talked about are appropriate for just website design only? No added SEO, PPC Management, etc.. just the dsite design.
+rep can't wait to read this tonight.
I have clients now. Fuck. Advice?
- Thread starter EricVonDoobie
- Start date
So when it comes to doctor/dentist/biz owners, do you think the 3 price points you talked about are appropriate for just website design only? No added SEO, PPC Management, etc.. just the dsite design.
+rep can't wait to read this tonight.
we build some projects in the education sector. This is somewhat new to us as well to build something for someone else. I would say try to have everything on paper so that they cant push more and more items into your build.
let them review at specific times, not everyday, or else you will waste time changing trivial things each day.
let them review at specific times, not everyday, or else you will waste time changing trivial things each day.
You could/should be basically assessing the client one at a time and figuring out their needs, if you can facilitate more than just design, do it, if you can lock them into a good upfront cost + monthly maintenance, do it. There is no sequence it's more about you listening to each clients needs, compiling a customized proposal with a lot of detail, and creating a good relationship first so they know you a) understand their biz b) you give a fuck c) you're worth the extra money because you're offering high end services not moms basement design/marketing.
This was my last lil' sweep but closed it shortly after - feel free to model after it and download the word documents near the bottom to start your paperwork/contracts from - I protected myself well and often times got a lot more from each client just by showing them how serious this process is - and listening carefully/branching their needs off to as many other services as I could: Brand Choppers which stemmed from NCMedia.ca
It's true re YOU should be choosing/filtering clients and saying NO as often as possible as quickly as possible to focus on nothing but the best clients and growing your minimum retainer/workflow. I ended up juggling 10-15 BIG clients and 3-5 small ones at my peak (where other years I would juggle litterally 50-100 clients and make less), made great fucking money, and then grew to hate them all because I was nothing but a media whore not really in charge of my life, and surrounded by BIG problems to solve 247 by yesterday... BUT it gave me a platform and amazing experience solving hundreds/thousands of biz and marketing problems for 12 years so I do value that experience (just would never do it again no matter how big the clients, but that's just me).
TLDR: Gage clients needs, sell them what you can at a fair per project value after understanding what they need and how much of a budget they may have, while already projecting what they will need next and after that, and prepare a map/sequence for that to happen = $.
Its all about sales presentation
I have friend who is a pretty good designer but not awesome and he gets 1-2k for installing joomla and making a custom template for it
He meets all his clients face to face, he talks a lot, and kisses ass a lot
he would probably starve if he had to compete online
Actually you should be able to get more then that for just installing a premium wordpress template and customizing it, if you are meeting with people in the real world
Outsource it all and get someone to manage their accounts.. Just make sure the work is of quality.. I usually turn down most projects referred to me by family/friends.
This thread is so full of win. I'm stoked to land some more clients at higher price points.
I have some things that are confusing me when it comes to more of the management side so hopefully you guys can add your .02 on these..
1. How do you guys manage multiple adwords, facebook, twitter, pinterest accounts? Do you just login with different proxies? I'm especially curious when it comes to adwords how you guys manage multiple campaigns for multiple clients.
I've been banned from adwords before using my name / personal account, so I'm curious if using my name on a new account to manage some clients will still get the account banned.
2. How can I actually provide value with social media like facebook pages? I guess I'm cvonfused on how to pitch a facebook page service correctly since it's not like I can tell them "Hey, you're going to have 500 new followers and 300 likes on facebook next month."
Is it enough to really just say "You need a facebook page. It's all about having that presence on facebook."
3. Last but not least I don't have an LLC yet and I can't afford it. I haven't used paypal in 2 years, but if I make a personal / sole proprieter paypal account w/ an email like payments@companyname.com , won't that allow me to bypass the awkwardness of me telling them to pay me, "Joe Blow", for $2k worth of serbvices.
I just want to be able to provide that reputable company vibe vs. the I live in my mom's garage one.
I have some things that are confusing me when it comes to more of the management side so hopefully you guys can add your .02 on these..
1. How do you guys manage multiple adwords, facebook, twitter, pinterest accounts? Do you just login with different proxies? I'm especially curious when it comes to adwords how you guys manage multiple campaigns for multiple clients.
I've been banned from adwords before using my name / personal account, so I'm curious if using my name on a new account to manage some clients will still get the account banned.
2. How can I actually provide value with social media like facebook pages? I guess I'm cvonfused on how to pitch a facebook page service correctly since it's not like I can tell them "Hey, you're going to have 500 new followers and 300 likes on facebook next month."
Is it enough to really just say "You need a facebook page. It's all about having that presence on facebook."
3. Last but not least I don't have an LLC yet and I can't afford it. I haven't used paypal in 2 years, but if I make a personal / sole proprieter paypal account w/ an email like payments@companyname.com , won't that allow me to bypass the awkwardness of me telling them to pay me, "Joe Blow", for $2k worth of serbvices.
I just want to be able to provide that reputable company vibe vs. the I live in my mom's garage one.
I was logging in to three different adwords accounts including my own at one point with no proxies and never had a problem. I was logging in to my clients' accounts with their account credentials, not my own. In a couple cases I forced my clients to create their own adwords accounts or at least give me a credit card number and I created the account for them, depending on the situation.
That could be a problem, don't know. I only ran one client campaign under my own account and it was on request.
Really depends on the client, if they already have a page, whether they want to build their social presence, whether it even makes sense for their goals, what you're actually trying to do vs. what you're being paid for
etc.My default schtick was pretty much the truth, 'a facebook page is important because it builds brand authority and it's a good signal to search engines that you take your online presence seriously'. I would then build and/or tune up their page a bit, decorate, add a couple tabs with static content, connect the site with a widget or whatnot, and if possible add a facebook call to action after customers exited a funnel/completed a goal. If they were good clients I'd update their status and reply to posts now and then. Ping.fm to Facebook & others for new content & authority links = easy brand building & seo win.
also this was a good thread.
Most of my clients sent checks made out to my corp but I had a few who I billed through paypal as you demonstrated above. If you don't want to set up a corp at the moment and want a branded option outside of paypal then see if your bank or a local credit union will hook you up with a business checking account. You might be able to get one in a business name as just a guy off the street or as a dba which are usually $25-50. You could then accept checks made out to a business not your name. I did this several years back before fully incorporating to become an internet trillionaire.
$.02, hope this helps :thumbsup:
Lol at lumping in dentists with restaurants. Next time you go to your dentist, ask how much they paid for their billing system/client management system/auto SMS reminder system and then you won't feel like a moron for charging $xx,xxx for their website.
$270 is a joke if you're actually interacting with the business/sitting down with them.
Remember that most of these places get multiple quotes and they are likely to go with one of the guys in the middle (nobody ever chooses the cheapest, especially if it's the cheapest by a long shot).
It's all about being able to relate the importance of the facebook page/twitter account to something they can understand. For example, let's say you have a video store. These guys used to send out mass TXTs/letters offering specials and they have copious amounts of data that backs up how successful these are (were).
Whenever I got a new client I'd have them list ways in which they were currently acquiring and monetizing customers. If it was a video store they'd tell me about the above, then when I got to pitching the facebook page I'd say something like the following.
"With facebook, we can have a separate tab called 'discounts' and the page must be 'liked' before this tab is accessible, this is called a 'call to action' and will provide an incentive for customers to like the page. This way whenever you have a new special or product you want to promote you can send out a message to all of those who have liked the page without having the costs associated with a mailout/text message campaign."
As for charging money....
To appear professional, weed out the dimwits and keep your sanity, there is ONE solution:
CHARGE MORE.
Charge professional prices and people see you as a professional.
270$ for a website? I hope you are fucking kidding me.
Start with 2K for very small sites, leave any client who will not pay this.
(I make more, but I am in Switzerland)
There are also formulas you can use to see what kind of price you can charge in your area.
1. Figure out what you have / want to earn
What are your monthly costs? (Rent, phone, food, etc...)
What do you want on top of that (pocket money, savings, etc..)
--------------
Sum costs
2. Figure out how many hours you can bill
Monthly BILLABLE hours (mostly, this is less than 160, because you are not working BILLABLE for 8 hours a day)
Costs / BILLABLE = hourly salary you need to shoot for
Example:
Assume I have costs of 7'000 $ (rent, food, etc.. plus some savings and fun money)
I figure out I can realistically bill 100 hours a month
7'000 / 100 = 70$ hourly rate
What I do is that I normally quote a fixed price for a bigger, complete project, such as a website.
This is a price I am comfortable with, so if I estimate 1month, I will quote 5K, knowing full well I don't need 1 month)
While this might seem shady, it is not. Be advised that you also need a bit of buffer in case of feature creep, etc... projects usually take longer.
I also find that most clients are more comfortable with bigger numbers.
While this might seem counter-intuitive, the psychological reason is simply: "What doesn't cost a lot, isn't worth a lot."
So quote high.
Then I outsource design work to a colleague, HTML/CSS work to India, integrate into the CMS / custom scripts I do myself, done.
I am usually done in far less time then I estimated, and it is a good thing.
A lot of small things / changes / problems can appear, but most importantly, this gives me time to
SWEAT THE DETAILS
I can then make sure the site goes a little bit above the expectations of the client. Add a nice touch here, change a form there, push some pixels over there.
Always have something you can tell the client "By the way, I added XYZ, I think that is a nice addition." and see their eyes light up like kids' on Christmas.
This is also an instant +rep for you.
COMMUNICATE
Send an email at least once every two weeks. Be polite and professional, also let the client know when you will go silent for a while.
"I am now starting to code the site. This will take about a month during which I do not need additional information. I'll keep you updated." works fine.
::emp::
To appear professional, weed out the dimwits and keep your sanity, there is ONE solution:
CHARGE MORE.
Charge professional prices and people see you as a professional.
270$ for a website? I hope you are fucking kidding me.
Start with 2K for very small sites, leave any client who will not pay this.
(I make more, but I am in Switzerland)
There are also formulas you can use to see what kind of price you can charge in your area.
1. Figure out what you have / want to earn
What are your monthly costs? (Rent, phone, food, etc...)
What do you want on top of that (pocket money, savings, etc..)
--------------
Sum costs
2. Figure out how many hours you can bill
Monthly BILLABLE hours (mostly, this is less than 160, because you are not working BILLABLE for 8 hours a day)
Costs / BILLABLE = hourly salary you need to shoot for
Example:
Assume I have costs of 7'000 $ (rent, food, etc.. plus some savings and fun money)
I figure out I can realistically bill 100 hours a month
7'000 / 100 = 70$ hourly rate
What I do is that I normally quote a fixed price for a bigger, complete project, such as a website.
This is a price I am comfortable with, so if I estimate 1month, I will quote 5K, knowing full well I don't need 1 month)
While this might seem shady, it is not. Be advised that you also need a bit of buffer in case of feature creep, etc... projects usually take longer.
I also find that most clients are more comfortable with bigger numbers.
While this might seem counter-intuitive, the psychological reason is simply: "What doesn't cost a lot, isn't worth a lot."
So quote high.
Then I outsource design work to a colleague, HTML/CSS work to India, integrate into the CMS / custom scripts I do myself, done.
I am usually done in far less time then I estimated, and it is a good thing.
A lot of small things / changes / problems can appear, but most importantly, this gives me time to
SWEAT THE DETAILS
I can then make sure the site goes a little bit above the expectations of the client. Add a nice touch here, change a form there, push some pixels over there.
Always have something you can tell the client "By the way, I added XYZ, I think that is a nice addition." and see their eyes light up like kids' on Christmas.
This is also an instant +rep for you.
COMMUNICATE
Send an email at least once every two weeks. Be polite and professional, also let the client know when you will go silent for a while.
"I am now starting to code the site. This will take about a month during which I do not need additional information. I'll keep you updated." works fine.
::emp::
For Adwords, get into their Engage program and you'll be considered an agency which means you can manage multiple accounts under your MCC and even get $100 vouchers to hand out to clients as an enticement to get them to sign up. When they sign up with the voucher they are under your MCC account enabling you to manage their account etc. so there is no need for proxies or any of that shit.
@tencent You're right the $270 is a joke I should have charged a lot more and you gave me some good ideas on how to pitch facebook pages from now on.
@emp Dude you just cleared up so much for me. I'm goign to do it your way and bill a flat rate based off of #1 when it comes to designing sites. Thanks for letting me see how you operate I appreciate it greatly.
@Gunman You just made my fucking day. I knew there had to be a way to do something legit for once.
Have you actually used the program, or do you just know of it? I'd be curious to hear about any problems you ran into when trying to get started or later on when managing accounts/campagins.
+rep for all of you thank you.
@emp Dude you just cleared up so much for me. I'm goign to do it your way and bill a flat rate based off of #1 when it comes to designing sites. Thanks for letting me see how you operate I appreciate it greatly.
@Gunman You just made my fucking day. I knew there had to be a way to do something legit for once.
Have you actually used the program, or do you just know of it? I'd be curious to hear about any problems you ran into when trying to get started or later on when managing accounts/campagins.
+rep for all of you thank you.
@mpbiz glad it helped
I actually forgot something.
MAINTENANCE / FOLLOW UP
After milking the client a flat rate, I make sure to make them bleed for hourly maintenance / site update, etc.. jobs.
This actually makes for nice beer money and more from most clients as they are too lazy to use even the simplest system.
So with the above example, if you bill 70$ per hour, a few small text changes, a new picture or two and a new article page easily add up to 3 hours / 210$ per month.
THE REAL SECRET INGREDIENT
Buy low, sell high.
You might have guessed, but I don't pay a lot for design and coding (actually, design is expensive, as the guy is good and lives in Switzerland, too).
Ahh.. fuck it... here are the numbers for an old project (a few years past)
Costs (in $, actually Swiss Francs, but they are almost the same, so screw it)
1' 600$ - Design (3 drafts, 1 for final with several changes)
150$ - HTML CSS Code and jquery from india
4'500$ - Own coding work --> 30 hours (roughly, I bill 150$ per hour)
Total Costs
6'250$ - including own work or
1'750$ - without
Revenue
10'000 $
Profit
3'750$ - if I was to pay a clone of myself for coding
or (realistically)
8'250$ - if I do not count my work as cost
What this really shows is that I could have made this work even outsourcing everything, including a coder for frigging 150$ / hour
(The day I find a good coder for 50$/hour is the day I outsource this)
But the real beauty is in the maintenance:
This client alone drops 300$ - 500$ every month in "we are too lazy, could you change this text for us instead" money.
Other stuff includes feature changes, new pages, etc...
::emp::
I actually forgot something.
MAINTENANCE / FOLLOW UP
After milking the client a flat rate, I make sure to make them bleed for hourly maintenance / site update, etc.. jobs.
This actually makes for nice beer money and more from most clients as they are too lazy to use even the simplest system.
So with the above example, if you bill 70$ per hour, a few small text changes, a new picture or two and a new article page easily add up to 3 hours / 210$ per month.
THE REAL SECRET INGREDIENT
Buy low, sell high.
You might have guessed, but I don't pay a lot for design and coding (actually, design is expensive, as the guy is good and lives in Switzerland, too).
Ahh.. fuck it... here are the numbers for an old project (a few years past)
Costs (in $, actually Swiss Francs, but they are almost the same, so screw it)
1' 600$ - Design (3 drafts, 1 for final with several changes)
150$ - HTML CSS Code and jquery from india
4'500$ - Own coding work --> 30 hours (roughly, I bill 150$ per hour)
Total Costs
6'250$ - including own work or
1'750$ - without
Revenue
10'000 $
Profit
3'750$ - if I was to pay a clone of myself for coding
or (realistically)
8'250$ - if I do not count my work as cost
What this really shows is that I could have made this work even outsourcing everything, including a coder for frigging 150$ / hour
(The day I find a good coder for 50$/hour is the day I outsource this)
But the real beauty is in the maintenance:
This client alone drops 300$ - 500$ every month in "we are too lazy, could you change this text for us instead" money.
Other stuff includes feature changes, new pages, etc...
::emp::
I got into the Engage program awhile back and let $2k worth of vouchers expire because the project I was working on wasn't done. Now my shit is done and I've got $2k more worth of vouchers just sitting on my desk reminding me everyday how much I really don't want to deal with clients. But to answer your question, I did get everything set up and running without much trouble so it can't be too hard. Feel free to hit me up on skype if you want.
@emp thank you for giving me such a deep look inside your biz and how you operate. It's good to see you get away with hourly rates like that, because right now I really just want the recurring billing.
@g1c9 definitely man right now I'm doing simple customizations to the same 5 templates.
@Gunman sounds good I'll be in touch soon check your PM's
This thread + $200k thread + $100k thread, I feel unstoppable right now.
Thank you for the help.
@g1c9 definitely man right now I'm doing simple customizations to the same 5 templates.
@Gunman sounds good I'll be in touch soon check your PM's
This thread + $200k thread + $100k thread, I feel unstoppable right now.
Thank you for the help.
@mpbiz
I am not really "getting away with hourly rates like that". I got shitloads of experience and ... as I said often .. it's fucking Switzerland.
Try the formula above (expenses to hourly rates) and you will arrive at some figure for your neighborhood.
As for my rates ... what is also calculated into that is that it will take me one hour to do something someone with less experience does badly in three.
::emp::
I am not really "getting away with hourly rates like that". I got shitloads of experience and ... as I said often .. it's fucking Switzerland.
Try the formula above (expenses to hourly rates) and you will arrive at some figure for your neighborhood.
As for my rates ... what is also calculated into that is that it will take me one hour to do something someone with less experience does badly in three.
::emp::
@emp that's actually a great way to pitch your services to clients when they ask why you cost more.. : "what is also calculated into that is that it will take me one hour to do something someone with less experience does badly in three"
A lot of the people I am cold calling right now are interested in SEO.
In cities where people are searching "cityname chiropractor" let's say 500-2k times a month, how hard would it be for me, with little SEO knowledge, to rank local businesses for those types of terms?
I know I can pitch SEO and the benefits of it over the phone, but I have no idea how to actually get their site from google page 2-3 to page 1. I would imagine it would be fairly easy to do it quickly for local search terms like that.
If I start making some SEO sales, can I get a clients site to rank that fast for $500 or less?
Not trying to offend the legit SEO's here, but I know I can sell the actual benefits of it so I'd be stupid not to try and sell it and then just outsource all of the actual work.
A lot of the people I am cold calling right now are interested in SEO.
In cities where people are searching "cityname chiropractor" let's say 500-2k times a month, how hard would it be for me, with little SEO knowledge, to rank local businesses for those types of terms?
I know I can pitch SEO and the benefits of it over the phone, but I have no idea how to actually get their site from google page 2-3 to page 1. I would imagine it would be fairly easy to do it quickly for local search terms like that.
If I start making some SEO sales, can I get a clients site to rank that fast for $500 or less?
Not trying to offend the legit SEO's here, but I know I can sell the actual benefits of it so I'd be stupid not to try and sell it and then just outsource all of the actual work.