If you're building a website do it for a monthly fee. Charge $50-100 a month for hosting + other things like website backups/virus scanning/minor changes, things like that. Then upsell them on seo/other things.
I have clients now. Fuck. Advice?
- Thread starter EricVonDoobie
- Start date
If you're building a website do it for a monthly fee. Charge $50-100 a month for hosting + other things like website backups/virus scanning/minor changes, things like that. Then upsell them on seo/other things.
As for setting expectations.
Get up front payment of a part, this shows commitment on part of the client.
1. Contract stating what you will do for them.
Example:
Design: 2500$ (I am just making up random numbers)
- 3 Design drafts in the color spectrum blue and orange.
- 1 Design will get 2 further revisions, then it will be finalized.
- If the client decides in the end he does not want to use one of the designs, the payment still has to be paid in full.
Coding 5000$
- The final design will be coded into a fully working website, using PHP and MySQL, and the Wordpress platform.
- The website will work on all modern browsers, IE8+, FF 10+, Opera 11+ and Chrome 15+
One of my favorite and (IMHO) most important parts, list what you will NOT do.
Out of scope
- The website will not be compliant with older browsers
- The website does not offer support for multi-language channels
- The website will not be using responsive design techniques
Deadlines / milestones
These need to go into the contract.
For work AND payment
Example:
Start of Work: 1st of June 2012, or after payment of up-front if later
Meeting to discuss design drafts: 1st of July 2012
Revisions and final design: 16th of July 2012
Deadline for payment on final design: 30th of July 2012
Start of coding work
End of coding: 1st of September 2012
Testing by client and OK by 10th of September 2012
Deadline for final payment 30th of September 2012
2. After design
Get confirmation on the final design IN WRITING. "yes, this is the design we want and agreed on the 25th of May 2012"
3. After coding
Get confirmation that everything was tested and OK.
"Yes, the website works as expected and can go live"
As for dealing with clients who will not pay:
CSS Killswitch
Is a dream.
BUT if you are going to use it, put this somewhere in the contract (under payment deadlines).
On signatures
In the above example, you have 3 documents to get signed, the initial contract, the final design and the signoff for the code.
Often, a technical specification comes in as well.
While an email is binding, I found that getting a physical signature on a piece of paper has far more impact.
People will say "yeah, ya" to an email only to find out they did not read it later.
Get a physical signature if possible.
As for the grunt work, outsource.
I work with an Indian guy named Sahil (css_designer) here on the forum.
Give him a PSD and he will turn it into HTML/CSS or even a WP template.
His HTML/CSS code is very good and he also does some jquery magic.
::emp::
Get up front payment of a part, this shows commitment on part of the client.
1. Contract stating what you will do for them.
Example:
Design: 2500$ (I am just making up random numbers)
- 3 Design drafts in the color spectrum blue and orange.
- 1 Design will get 2 further revisions, then it will be finalized.
- If the client decides in the end he does not want to use one of the designs, the payment still has to be paid in full.
Coding 5000$
- The final design will be coded into a fully working website, using PHP and MySQL, and the Wordpress platform.
- The website will work on all modern browsers, IE8+, FF 10+, Opera 11+ and Chrome 15+
One of my favorite and (IMHO) most important parts, list what you will NOT do.
Out of scope
- The website will not be compliant with older browsers
- The website does not offer support for multi-language channels
- The website will not be using responsive design techniques
Deadlines / milestones
These need to go into the contract.
For work AND payment
Example:
Start of Work: 1st of June 2012, or after payment of up-front if later
Meeting to discuss design drafts: 1st of July 2012
Revisions and final design: 16th of July 2012
Deadline for payment on final design: 30th of July 2012
Start of coding work
End of coding: 1st of September 2012
Testing by client and OK by 10th of September 2012
Deadline for final payment 30th of September 2012
2. After design
Get confirmation on the final design IN WRITING. "yes, this is the design we want and agreed on the 25th of May 2012"
3. After coding
Get confirmation that everything was tested and OK.
"Yes, the website works as expected and can go live"
As for dealing with clients who will not pay:
CSS Killswitch
Is a dream.
BUT if you are going to use it, put this somewhere in the contract (under payment deadlines).
On signatures
In the above example, you have 3 documents to get signed, the initial contract, the final design and the signoff for the code.
Often, a technical specification comes in as well.
While an email is binding, I found that getting a physical signature on a piece of paper has far more impact.
People will say "yeah, ya" to an email only to find out they did not read it later.
Get a physical signature if possible.
As for the grunt work, outsource.
I work with an Indian guy named Sahil (css_designer) here on the forum.
Give him a PSD and he will turn it into HTML/CSS or even a WP template.
His HTML/CSS code is very good and he also does some jquery magic.
::emp::
As a rule of thumb, you can generally charge offline/local businesses 100000% more than you can someone who is internet savvy. Never be scared to quote high in these cases. These clients can also be the most demanding and needy by asking way too many questions anyway, so the money is definitely justified. As long as you act professional and get the job done, they are more than happy to toss the cash your way for something they have no way to do themselves. This being said, I LOVE LOVE LOVE offline clients.
However, I'm not sure what kind of client work you're doing, but just make sure you set boundaries with people - this is when I'm available, this is when I'm not, this is what you get, this is what you don't get, etc etc. If you don't want them calling you, don't give them your number. Most people are fine with email communication as long as you're prompt with replies.
I've been doing client work for years. Honestly, a vast majority of people are a pleasure to work with and extremely polite. In fact, I would say 90% of everyone I've ever dealt with has been a smooth experience.
You *will* get the bad apples though. My advice is to just cut your losses early with these kind of people and tell them to kick rocks. They are not worth dealing with at all. Ever. They will never be pleased with anything and will waste your time in ways you didn't even know exist. You will learn to spot them quickly if you do a lot of client work.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
However, I'm not sure what kind of client work you're doing, but just make sure you set boundaries with people - this is when I'm available, this is when I'm not, this is what you get, this is what you don't get, etc etc. If you don't want them calling you, don't give them your number. Most people are fine with email communication as long as you're prompt with replies.
I've been doing client work for years. Honestly, a vast majority of people are a pleasure to work with and extremely polite. In fact, I would say 90% of everyone I've ever dealt with has been a smooth experience.
You *will* get the bad apples though. My advice is to just cut your losses early with these kind of people and tell them to kick rocks. They are not worth dealing with at all. Ever. They will never be pleased with anything and will waste your time in ways you didn't even know exist. You will learn to spot them quickly if you do a lot of client work.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
I'll leave this here -- Clients From Hell
Personally, I simply refuse any and all contract work nowadays. It's just simply not worth it. I'm too nice of a guy, and due to that, always manage to fuck myself.
Personally, I simply refuse any and all contract work nowadays. It's just simply not worth it. I'm too nice of a guy, and due to that, always manage to fuck myself.
Exactly. If you need the money to pay the bills, then yeah, take on client work. Otherwise, forget about it, and concentrate on your own projects.
For me at least, I can't stand contract work, as it just sucks the soul out of me. Wake up in the morning, make a coffee, then sit behind the computer all day busting your ass on someone else's project / business.
At the end of the day, what do you get out of it? Sure, you get a nice hourly rate, but that's it. The day is gone, wasted. Whereas if you dedicate that time to your own projects / business, that day isn't wasted. It was spent on enhancing your business, which is going to continue making you money for months and years to come.
With your own projects, you get to work on building yourself a solid foundation for the future. With client work, you bust your ass, and have to put up with an inordinate amount of shit, just to build someone else's foundation for the future. And at the end of that 3 month, or 2 year project, you have nothing to show for it. Fuck that.
This. So. Much. This.
I'm about 4 months away from being done with clients, and I can't fucking wait. They suck. They lie. They have no self awareness. Finding a good client is like finding a dollar in a septic tank.
Hi Eric, I just started a thread about legal insurance, go have a look see there might be some good stuff in there for you:
http://www.wickedfire.com/traffic-content/157943-legal-question-seos-clients.html
Oh, and also make sure that you have a stipulation in your contract concerning extra work/time spent!! I didnt have it and wound up putting in a ton of extra work because the guy had so many questions and requests. I put in like 6-8 hours extra work with mailing and explaining stuff and looking at his content and mailing with his retard Indian webmaster about changes concerning onpage seo. So make sure you got that covered.
http://www.wickedfire.com/traffic-content/157943-legal-question-seos-clients.html
Oh, and also make sure that you have a stipulation in your contract concerning extra work/time spent!! I didnt have it and wound up putting in a ton of extra work because the guy had so many questions and requests. I put in like 6-8 hours extra work with mailing and explaining stuff and looking at his content and mailing with his retard Indian webmaster about changes concerning onpage seo. So make sure you got that covered.
You could do what I have seen several big name SEO companies do
1) make a big pdf proposal with lots of slick graphics and logos
2) Have dedicated sales people talk the service
3) get the money
4) Do pretty much nothing
I have seen this method work several times now, I actually saw one of the big SEO brands take someone I know for around 40k using this method
1) make a big pdf proposal with lots of slick graphics and logos
2) Have dedicated sales people talk the service
3) get the money
4) Do pretty much nothing
I have seen this method work several times now, I actually saw one of the big SEO brands take someone I know for around 40k using this method
I should -neg you just for being an idiot.
"All you have to do is sell them the new BMW, but you don't actually have to deliver it".
Nor far from the truth unfortunately. I had a 2 week stint with one of the biggest SEO companies in the world and they bascially billed their clients upwards of $10K-15K a month just to build articles and some 2nd tier links. Quote: "We don't have fixed prices, we just price to what they can afford'. So if you have a huge corporation as a client, you just bill them 10 times more than a small for the same work.
arty-smiley-004:I'm slanging designs but that's what I plan on doing.
I'm only charging restuarants and dentists $270 right now for a basic template/design, but once I refine my ptich, in a couple of weeks I'm only going to target lawyers, surgeons, architects, etc..
I know it's going to be harder to even get a meeting setup with them or get a decision maker on the phone, but I'm gonna charge them $1k+ vs. the $270 so it'll be worth it.
Do any of you guys charge $1-2k+ for just website design/template to these businesses? Or am I going to get laughed at?
I'm seeing a lot of "don't stretch yourself too thin" and whatever posts, just skimming and I haven't seen any posts about delegating the work?
When quantity of prospects becomes a burden, you really need to recognize the new opportunity that is opening up.
Start looking around for other people who have the same skill set you do. If you can't find someone, take the time to teach someone or at the very least, teach someone enough to follow a to do list that you make for them each day.
If you can get away with not having to teach someone, great. Find a few prospective workers and try them out on some low maintenance clients. If they are good, keep them and delegate the work you don't want to do to them. If they suck, whatever, it's an easier job and you can rush to get it done before deadline yourself. Give yourself some wiggle room initially just in case it comes to that.
If you're lucky, finding talent and delegating work to that talent will become a new skill you acquire. At the same time, you will freeing up your time and generating semi-passive income.
When quantity of prospects becomes a burden, you really need to recognize the new opportunity that is opening up.
Start looking around for other people who have the same skill set you do. If you can't find someone, take the time to teach someone or at the very least, teach someone enough to follow a to do list that you make for them each day.
If you can get away with not having to teach someone, great. Find a few prospective workers and try them out on some low maintenance clients. If they are good, keep them and delegate the work you don't want to do to them. If they suck, whatever, it's an easier job and you can rush to get it done before deadline yourself. Give yourself some wiggle room initially just in case it comes to that.
If you're lucky, finding talent and delegating work to that talent will become a new skill you acquire. At the same time, you will freeing up your time and generating semi-passive income.
Instead of locking in at $x - the best way I used to operate was to offer them a three tier proposal. EXAMPLE - Package 1 is $999, and gives them just UNDER what they need but is cost efficient, package 2 is $1859 and covers their needs and a bit more, package 3 is $2999 and is going to take care of them well. You structure your proposals so that they do NOT want package 1, and force them into 2-3 or a variation of based on your exploration of their biz and needs/wants.
I can't believe my ears re charging $270 for anything work related. You'd be surprised at how little 1K is to a doctor/dentist/biz owner that's not well versed online. You guys are all used to hustling each other and marketers are the worst clients to have. DO NOT BE AFRAID to charge accordingly as you are bound to MAKE them money with your services not just prepare a one time deliverable good for one use.
Try charging 5K and once you do get it, never go below that again. And no the meetings aren't harder they tend to get easier as you go up the value chain with clients. I remember some of my $xx,xxx gigs were easier than the $500 new startup that I was doing a favor for...
I can't believe my ears re charging $270 for anything work related. You'd be surprised at how little 1K is to a doctor/dentist/biz owner that's not well versed online. You guys are all used to hustling each other and marketers are the worst clients to have. DO NOT BE AFRAID to charge accordingly as you are bound to MAKE them money with your services not just prepare a one time deliverable good for one use.
Try charging 5K and once you do get it, never go below that again. And no the meetings aren't harder they tend to get easier as you go up the value chain with clients. I remember some of my $xx,xxx gigs were easier than the $500 new startup that I was doing a favor for...
A GREAT article on this subject was last December in Smashing magazine
Turning Small Projects Into Big Profit, A Case Study | Smashing Magazine
Read it, take notes, and apply.
::emp::
Turning Small Projects Into Big Profit, A Case Study | Smashing Magazine
Read it, take notes, and apply.
::emp::
