The Debate the just ended......

So just because you haven't seen them means they don't exist?

We'll act like people haven't been jailed for fraud for inflated appraisals, falsified loan applications, etc.

Of course it could have happened. But an inflated appraisal and falsified applications - those are not where the borrower sees in black and white the amount of their payment.

I am saying in the majority of cases the loan docs were accurate (majority - not all) because these loans had to be packaged and sold. There was a lot of fraud going in - but most of the docs (not all) showed the correct payments.

Yes I have read the congressional findings for banks like WAMU etc so it is not like I am talking out of my ass on this.
 


Of course it could have happened. But an inflated appraisal and falsified applications - those are not where the borrower sees in black and white the amount of their payment.

I am saying in the majority of cases the loan docs were accurate (majority - not all) because these loans had to be packaged and sold. There was a lot of fraud going in - but most of the docs (not all) showed the correct payments.

Yes I have read the congressional findings for banks like WAMU etc so it is not like I am talking out of my ass on this.

Of course the majority of the loan docs were legit. The majority of home buyers didn't lose their home so your argument is moot.
 
Of course the majority of the loan docs were legit. The majority of home buyers didn't lose their home so your argument is moot.

Really? You are going to come at me with this bullshit?

No need to argue with you because you just know that all the docs were incorrect. So if all the loan docs are incorrect are you aware that they are not enforceable? So where are the lawsuits? Not the robosigning crap - the lawsuits pointing out fair credit errors etc?

Do not come at with me with bullshit.

If the docs are wrong you can get out of the contract not to mention heavy fines from regulators - so show me all your evidence of actual loan docs that were showing incorrect payments to your "duped" borrowers.

The fact is that most loan docs were correct, within reasonable calculation errors, this is why so few forensic audit lawyers have made much traction in the industry.
 
Decades is very short term and fall into the time period I mentioned. Even cocaine produces short term gains.

It is a very short time on the grand scale of things but in the world of international economic development it's a very long time. Massive amounts of wealth is created in very short periods of time when market conditions are well constructed and well maintained.

Paypal comes up with PPbux, a new currency tied to 100% assets on hand (any currency or asset). This is a non-fractional system so the printing of our currency is not in paypal's back pocket.

Paypal can do what it wants with it's money, but when you log in it shows PPbux balance. When you spend in any country, the currency translation is done on the spot.

That's totally virtual, but pushed to market using pp debit cards and/or bank transfers ... what more do we need? After some time paypal can mint coins or whatever to start to make a push to take over.

/end example

If I were ebay/paypal, this is exactly what I'd do then make paypal bucks attached to it's reserve amount. Similar to a mutual fund, paypal gets to invest the balance and take some off the top. If they do well, my fruits multiply because when the conversion to USD happens I win. I guarantee my balance will follow a company that gives a return.

We're a looooooong way away from buying apples with anything but paper, but the transition doesn't have to be painful. And if companies are competing, they'll do a better job for everyone than a monopoly.
I hear what you're saying and it sounds pretty sweet. This kind of thing very well may be able to exist nationally, if not regionally or by state. I suppose it could exist on a corporate level too as you say, ala PayPal bux, Wal-Bux, etc. That's kinda scary on its face. Interesting economic implications depending on regulation or the lack thereof. In any case I don't see the Fed letting it happen right now - or ever - unless they control it.

Internationally though it simply is not feasible right now. The US Treasury is the only single entity in the world that has the ability to finance hundreds of billions of dollars of turnover day in and day out. To keep international finance going at this point there has to be some kind of way to potentially turn trillions of dollars into cash on the spot. Nothing on earth but the US Treasury can do this right now.

Not saying I like the predicament that the dollar is in, but at the moment I don't think it's as easy as opening financial markets to lesser currencies and hoping that will ease the pressure of dollar financing.

Not to mention that with derivative speculation on the books as it exists right now these currencies/companies would be blown apart in nanoseconds if they were integrated into financial markets. Or probably even if they weren't, really. Ironically one of the only reasons the dollar is still on its feet at all is because it's too big and too integrated with other currencies for speculators to kill it with credit default swaps and the rest of their hocus pocus. Although they're trying.

Obviously the only solution to our economic woes is starting WFBux, backed on the strength of the dickroll. What more do the markets need?

Gold is a good example because it's been used for centuries, in reality backing it with anything is good enough as long as the accountability to not print more exists.

What the buck is backed in is irrelevant, but something (anything) is a necessity as long as cartels and/or politicians are in control.
That's just it. I have to say though that even with gangsters at the wheel the world can't get enough of the T bill. S&P attacks the US credit rating and what does the world do? Buy US Treasury notes. It's still the safe haven in a panic even when a purported ratings agency tries to say it's not. I'm not a fan of the system as it lies but there's no denying that the US Treasury is the primary engine of world economics.
 
Really? You are going to come at me with this bullshit?

No need to argue with you because you just know that all the docs were incorrect. So if all the loan docs are incorrect are you aware that they are not enforceable? So where are the lawsuits? Not the robosigning crap - the lawsuits pointing out fair credit errors etc?

Do not come at with me with bullshit.

If the docs are wrong you can get out of the contract not to mention heavy fines from regulators - so show me all your evidence of actual loan docs that were showing incorrect payments to your "duped" borrowers.

The fact is that most loan docs were correct, within reasonable calculation errors, this is why so few forensic audit lawyers have made much traction in the industry.

Again, many brokers and appraisers were jailed for these practices. Oh, look, the very first result.

Yes, you can get out of contract but the majority of these borrowers found out after they've ruined their credit. Anyone that's ever had to go through removing any falsified report from their credit knows it's a pain in the fucking ass and it takes a while.

Just because they can get out of the loan doesn't mean they weren't already foreclosed on, had their credit ruined, lost their savings, etc.
 
Again, many brokers and appraisers were jailed for these practices. Oh, look, the very first result.

Did you read the article? Apparently not, because it made my point, not yours.

Yes, you can get out of contract but the majority of these borrowers found out after they've ruined their credit. Anyone that's ever had to go through removing any falsified report from their credit knows it's a pain in the fucking ass and it takes a while.

Actually, having worked for a bank, I know that one little piece of paper sent to the credit agency fixes all relevant credit errors immediately. If their were falsified docs the borrowers would have had their credit immed repaired and they could sue for damages - you have no idea what you are talking about.



Just because they can get out of the loan doesn't mean they weren't already foreclosed on, had their credit ruined, lost their savings, etc.

So how is this the banks fault? This started when I said the borrowers were complicit - they bear responsibility just as much as do the bankers, appraisers, etc.

They lost their savings because they bought a home they knew they could not afford because they expected it to continue and skyrocket in value. If they lost their jobs and could not make the payment that has not relevance to the loan fraud.

You tell me why the person does not short sale their home, rent down the street for less, buy again in 2 years for half the price they bought in the first place?
 
Did you read the article? Apparently not, because it made my point, not yours.



Actually, having worked for a bank, I know that one little piece of paper sent to the credit agency fixes all relevant credit errors immediately. If their were falsified docs the borrowers would have had their credit immed repaired and they could sue for damages - you have no idea what you are talking about.





So how is this the banks fault? This started when I said the borrowers were complicit - they bear responsibility just as much as do the bankers, appraisers, etc.

They lost their savings because they bought a home they knew they could not afford because they expected it to continue and skyrocket in value. If they lost their jobs and could not make the payment that has not relevance to the loan fraud.

You tell me why the person does not short sale their home, rent down the street for less, buy again in 2 years for half the price they bought in the first place?

Come on, you're really not that simple...are you?

In approximately 2002, Rodney D. Wells worked as a mortgage broker through two companies he created, "Manhattan Group Mortgage" and "Superior Funding Group," and obtained financing for buyers of properties on which he had placed fraudulent liens. The fraudulent liens were placed on the properties by Rodney D. Wells using another fictitious business, a purported construction company known as "Tenacity Construction." Through this fake business, Rodney D. Wells prepared and submitted fraudulent invoices and placed liens on property for work that was never actually done on those properties.

Then, to qualify prospective buyers for loans, Rodney D. Wells prepared and submitted to lenders false appraisals inflating the price of homes and fraudulent information regarding the prospective buyer's finances including, false verifications of assets on deposit, false information regarding the source of down payment funds and a false representation that the purchaser intended to live in the property as their primary residence. Lending institutions then issued loans relying on the fraudulent information submitted by Rodney D. Wells.

That proves nothing of what you said, only exactly what I said. The broker falsified the information on submission, not the borrower.

Yes, unfortunately I do know what I'm talking about regarding falsified credit reports. It happened to me 6 years ago and it was a fucking nightmare. If it was so easy, people's entire lives wouldn't be ruined by identity theft.

Some people did buy houses under the pretense you stated, not all.

You need to go back and read my initial post. You're making a lot of assumptions on what you think I said that I did not say. I didn't say every scenario was like that, I said a lot of them are and were.
 
That proves nothing of what you said, only exactly what I said. The broker falsified the information on submission, not the borrower.

Yes, unfortunately I do know what I'm talking about regarding falsified credit reports. It happened to me 6 years ago and it was a fucking nightmare. If it was so easy, people's entire lives wouldn't be ruined by identity theft.

Some people did buy houses under the pretense you stated, not all.

You need to go back and read my initial post. You're making a lot of assumptions on what you think I said that I did not say. I didn't say every scenario was like that, I said a lot of them are and were.


I said the borrowers knew what they were signing. The loan docs outline the payments - high, low, etc even for ARM's therefore the borrowers knew the payments they would encounter.

I said that falsified loan docs were very rare. You keep pointing to falsified applications etc which were very common.

If a bank has falsified loan docs then those docs are not enforceable - hence the need for forensic audits - but the forensic audit industry that sprung up has largely failed to find any large scale problems with actual docs. When they do find a problem they can cram down the loan balance etc on the Bank and get the borrower a sweetheart deal.

The only way a borrower did not know what their payments would be, even fully adjusted is that they did not read what they signed - that is their fault.

As for your credit report - yes I am certain you had a bitch of a time getting it fixed - but let me tell you if the bank had a regulatory issue with falsified loan docs that credit report would be fixed in a matter of hours. It is very simple.

By the way, the lie that it is difficult to fix a credit report has been put on the American people hence the need for lifelock etc - if congress would make a single law making a credit report fixable on submission of a police report (same standard of evidence needed for a credit card fraud claim) then the agency could fix the credit in 1 day. The fact that people are paying lifelock $xx per year to protect them from something so simple is a disgrace and total failure of our regulatory agencies.


I am outta this thread- it has ceased to be on topic and ceased to be fun
 
Oooooookkk.... so back on topic: I hope Ron Paul wins the Repub primary. I just don't think he will if history is any good at predicting the future. But I really really hope he does.
 
For those of you questioning where RP stands. This is after 35 years as a politician. There is an important part in here for those of us who make our living on the net.

He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.
He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.
He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.
 
IF he gets the republican nod, obama will lose by >10% thanks to RP's classic liberal ideals and his appeal to the independents.

I was just saying this. If the republicans could see past their own noses the dems would be in trouble.

People really should pay attention when I say I would vote for him. He's the only republican I ever would or ever will vote for. You don't think there are others like me? At least enough to push the majority? THINK ABOUT IT.

As long as he conveys that his personal beliefs (religion abortion...etc) wouldn't effect his policy, he's golden with us.
 
I was just saying this. If the republicans could see past their own noses the dems would be in trouble.

People really should pay attention when I say I would vote for him. He's the only republican I ever would or ever will vote for. You don't think there are others like me? At least enough to push the majority? THINK ABOUT IT.

As long as he conveys that his personal beliefs (religion abortion...etc) wouldn't effect his policy, he's golden with us.

If hes on the ballot I'm voting otherwise no way. I bet there are a good number of folks like me out there as well including a lot who won't bother with primaries.
 
For those of you questioning where RP stands. This is after 35 years as a politician. There is an important part in here for those of us who make our living on the net.

He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.
He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.
He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

I know I quit the thread - But now that it is back on topic.

Can anyone formulate real and persuasive arguments for why those that do not take him seriously should vote for him?

I really want you to think about it. It is easy to vote no on everything. It is easy to say what he says - but can he get anything done?

I mean - Gold is not money (in economic terms)
Paying with printed money is not default.

If you expect to get him elected and support him on the net - then formulate an argument that shows he is effective, can create coalitions, can get anything done. Formulate arguments that show him as a sane person and not a snappy little nerd that nips at the heel;s of the successful.

What has he done?

Please understand I am not against Paul - I admittedly knew nothing about him until my earlier post in this thread where I looked into him and then listed some objections to him. In many ways I am similar to many the bitter clinger conservatives that are critical in for the primary win. Turbolapp may represent a general election win - but you need conservatives like me to even get to the general's.

Why is he not an ineffective jerk that has a large vocal internet following of college students but no real following amongst actual voters?
 
Hopefully one of the folks on here who can articulate themselves better than me will respond. However, I'm not a college kid. I'm 36, have 4 kids, a house, etc... My father and several of his friends I know are supporting RP. They are in their 60's and either in retirement or nearing it.

I know plenty of people near my age with young children who ARE RP supporters as well.

We aren't all college kids in other words.
 
Can anyone formulate real and persuasive arguments for why those that do not take him seriously should vote for him?
I think it's pretty simple. Do you want your liberties back? Do you want to take away ways the government spies on you? Do you want to end these ridiculous peace keeping missions - I mean wars? Do you want more power over what happens (the idea of the Federal Government curtailing power and giving more to the states)? Do you want someone who has a track record of telling it like it is, even if it hurts, and sticks to their principals?

The entire principal of libertarian politics is this:

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.
To me those are all very compelling arguments.
 
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I think it's pretty simple. Do you want your liberties back? Do you want to take away ways the government spies on you? Do you want to end these ridiculous peace keeping missions - I mean wars? Do you want more power over what happens (the idea of the Federal Government curtailing power and giving more to the states)? Do you want someone who has a track record of telling it like it is, even if it hurts, and sticks to their principals?

To me those are all very compelling arguments.

Pretty much this. I seriously disagree with a good chunk of RP's social/economic policies and anti-government clap trap. But he would nationalize the Fed. He would end the wars and interventionism. Stop the police state. Put some things back in the hands of the States where they belong. Exterminate a lot of the parasites clinging to the political apparatus in DC. This stuff alone is enough for anyone paying attention to want to vote for him.

Probably the best thing that would come of a RP presidency is he would compel the US culture back into everyday political activism and awareness, something that hasn't existed for a long, long time, and leave that behind after his term.

REI I know where you're coming from and it's a hard question to answer, especially since RP's been marginalized for so long as has been pointed out. But you have to recognize the possibility that inside the next five years or so the economic fate of the present age of the US will likely be decided. This next time around is probably our last go at things before our country just utterly falls into ruin. Maybe not. Just a possibility. But the fact that RP is a man for the people and actually has his eye on the ball at all is enough at this point for most people to just say get his ass into office before we tank.

Plus these days, practically anyone who has a track record of getting shit done has been getting bad shit done while the few good ones in Congress can't get a damn thing done. Hard for a good guy to build up a working track record in this kind of climate.

And anyway who else are you going to vote for?
 
You know, this country is getting the leadership it deserves.

Seriously... The majority of Americans are welfare-enabled fatties on their couches watching reruns of baywatch instead of contributing to society. On both sides of the aisle, as if that really matters, the vast majority of people don't even bother to vote and most of those who do are just echoing the crap the media says that goes along with what they already heard from somewhere else on their idiot box.

Have you ever thought that Ron Paul can't win because there simply aren't enough smart people here that would actually WANT anything resembling liberty?

If you want someone like Paul as your leader, you're pretty much going to have to find an island somewhere and start a new country there for him to rule. There are too many americans in the way here in America, and they simply DO NOT WANT what you and I want... It's too problematic and gets in the way of their free handouts.
 
Now that I've dumped my negativity on another RP thread once again, I'll try something different for a change: Attempt to identify a solution...

So obviously the problem lies in the fact that we're outnumbered, and that more people are in our way than would be on our side even if you include everyone who wants more liberty.

You can't affect elections. You can't get any libertarians or close to it into office. You can't even educate these fucktard loafers on why liberty is a good thing because it would interfere with those Baywatch reruns.

What's left? I just see War & Espionage.

War has the bigger problems, I'd think. They found out in 1865 that it doesn't work so well for issues like these. I don't know if I want my liberty enough to die for it, especially since I don't have any children.

Espionage, at least at the political level, is the most obvious choice.

Here's how we'd do it...

Step 1. Find a true Libertarian like Ron who is at the beginning of their career. Before they build up a telling voting record yet.

Step 2. Draft him to the cause, which will make him a president to rule as he sees fit.

Step 3. Make him appear to be a perfectly electable Moderate Republican in both grooming and VOTING RECORD. For as long as it takes, have him vote like a moderate republican that always votes for the things that the largest percentage of voters cares about that year. In short, Pander like Obama did.

Step 4. WF members of course can lend a link or two to get this guy into the next office each election... Maybe even building up a far stronger group of support by INVITING other libertarians (who have any influence) in on the secret one by one.

Step 5. When he takes the presidency, the curtain falls and his true nature commences. We win. At least for 4 years.