The Merchant/Advertiser Scrubbing and Shaving List



Scrubbing and shaving are not one and the same. Scrubbing a necessary "evil" and perfectly legit, while the later is a big no-no.
 
mkrongel said:
It wouldn't work for anything to be honest. Most email submit companies employ a technology that tells them if the zip is within 50 miles of the IP address they are using, so they can catch fraud.

Everyone has some form of data validation to ensure they get valid data that you wouldnt be able to replicate the conversions without knowing the validation rules.
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Would you suggest then I contact an affiliate manager before I do an offline newspaper type campaign so they realize the leads will all be within 50 miles?
 
Technique to stop shaving:

Run a few leads (yourself/friends/family) through the offer. Track conversions. Contact AM and ask for test leads to be nulled as you were testing the offer. AM/Advertiser will look upon you with new eyes as you know your shit. Mention shaving and ask for a pay bump while your at it.

Anyone here got any better advice?
 
DwayneDibley said:
Mention shaving and ask for a pay bump while your at it.
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Why would you mention shaving and then ask for a pay bump at the same time? Shaving happens because traffic only backs out at a certain number and not all traffic is equal as far as quality is concerned. So when you have a general payout and all sorts of people running at the same payout shaving happens to make sure the traffic still backs out for the advertiser. Otherwise, you would just be shut off from running the offer. Also, another factor is the "payout increase". Pubs see an email submit offer $1.75 from one advertiser and just run it no matter what and then complain about the conversion rate. So they go to the competitor's offer and ask them to match the $1.75 they got from the other offer. The advertiser wants the traffic so they agree, even though they know it doesn't back out to that payout. But they don't want to miss out on getting traffic, so they shave the incoming traffic as well. So by asking for a payout increase you're more than likely causing your own shaving.

My advice for all of you guys is go to the advertiser directly and bypass the networks and ask for a payout that your traffic backs out to with no scrub. Run it and see how your conversion #s compare to when you were running on networks.
 
I've been advertising Dark Orbit.. i'll start out 10% CVR for the first 30-45 minutes and it will drop below 5% within an hour/2 hours. This just recently started happening too. Its been running steady 6-7% for months and then all of a sudden a few days ago it dropped all the way down to 1%. I decided to split test my ads across another network where the conversion rate was steady 5.5%. So would this be a tell-tale sign of shaving from the network end? Day-parting is not an issue here.
 
I am new to this site and wanted to see where the best place to go and offer referal partnerships to affiliate groups or internet based companies
thanks
 
Shit is real shady out there boys and girls. I know for a fact that many of the top advertisers out there make 90% of their money from shaving. They offer high payouts to get attention, to the point where they would barely make any money, but then they use sophisticated shaving systems to skim 10-30% off the top in seemingly "random" ways so most affiliates don't notice, and they get rich off of that 10-30%. Wish I could be more specific.

The moral of the story is that if you're serious, at some point you need to run your own offers. Period.
 
dsiomtw said:
Shit is real shady out there boys and girls. I know for a fact that many of the top advertisers out there make 90% of their money from shaving. They offer high payouts to get attention, to the point where they would barely make any money, but then they use sophisticated shaving systems to skim 10-30% off the top in seemingly "random" ways so most affiliates don't notice, and they get rich off of that 10-30%. Wish I could be more specific.

The moral of the story is that if you're serious, at some point you need to run your own offers. Period.
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Uh, no kidding dude. :)
 
As a list management company in business for over 10 years I have tested many networks/offers and honestly believe all are shaving to some degree. I run a lot of payday and know that the shaving of conversions goes crazy on Friday and weekends because their buyers are taking much less volume.

For me the best strategy has been to rotate networks and offers frequently. This keeps the networks hounding you for traffic and in efforts to keep you mailing/promoting their offers they leave the scrub off for the first day or two then once they feel like you have them in a regular rotation they start to scrub.
 
Every offer you find on a network is being scrubbed by the network and the advertiser to match your traffic quality. Going direct to the advertiser for the offer can get you better margins but also more headaches. There is something to be said for running an offer through a network and let them deal with the advertiser. If your traffic is really good then direct with the advertiser is the way to go.

I was recently running Emergency Loan Mod Relief and it started out converting at 26% with a $4.17 EPC. Over the next week it dropped to a 10% conversion rate and a $1.73 EPC. I pulled the offer from the network and ran it on a new network and it is running steady at a 17% conversion rate and a $3 EPC. This is a clear case of the network scrubbing. Shit is weak.
 
Unarmed Gunman said:
So let me ask then - does this include advertisers that are members of WF? This could cause a shit storm, especially if certain individuals are shaving...not saying i've had problems, just asking in advance.
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That is EXACTLY what happened to me. A couple times now. They ask for more traffic, then fuck you.
And apparently they're so important to the networks that run them(who know what they're doing) that they won't do anything about it. I really like the network that I run them through(who are active on this board), but truthfully I don't give them a chance very often anymore, which sucks.

Last time it happened I really hoped they might step up and do something, and I was pretty disappointed.

_________________
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I have read a lot of good points throughout this post, which I will comment upon, all feedback is appreciated.

Roundabout said:
Great topic.

I've never been able to get a straight answer from the Advertiser's on this key point to shaving: if you submit a lead that already exists in their database, OR THEIR PARTNER'S DATABASE, does it count.

Note the emphasis on PARTNERS above. This is important because if you submit a lead that is unique to ADVERTISER1.COM but might already be a purchasing customer from their partner ADVERTISER2.COM, they consider this a dupe, even though your lead generated an action. These guys love to pool their databases together into one giant database that they dedupe against. It's unfair because even though Joe Shmoe paid $10 3 years ago to sign up to the site, if he was dormant until you sent him to another website owned by the same company, or a partner thereof, and he made another sale, you should be credited for it.
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For the above issue, I would think it should be the networks responsibility to notify the affiliates if there is a massive database involved in the offer. The networks should inquire with the merchant on this issue. Both sides gotta make money I understand this, but maybe it makes sense to create some law and standardization in the industry regarding database sharing?

Additionally I would like to see a lawyers perspective on these scrubbing issues, and what legal rights and responsibilities affiliates can take advantage of.


bb_wolfe said:
Since someone is obviously going to start a shitstorm with some uneducated post about so-and-so offer scrubbing, Ad Hustler has a great post that gets you past the "are they are aren't they scrubbing" question.

Maybe it'd be a good idea for some folks who are on the fence about their offer to try this first: Ad Hustler Article In Feedfront Magazine June 2009 | Ad Hustler
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Extremely good article in the link!


DwayneDibley said:
Technique to stop shaving:

Run a few leads (yourself/friends/family) through the offer. Track conversions. Contact AM and ask for test leads to be nulled as you were testing the offer. AM/Advertiser will look upon you with new eyes as you know your shit. Mention shaving and ask for a pay bump while your at it.

Anyone here got any better advice?
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Has anyone else here tried this technique? It is an interesting strategy.


edls4475 said:
My advice for all of you guys is go to the advertiser directly and bypass the networks and ask for a payout that your traffic backs out to with no scrub. Run it and see how your conversion #s compare to when you were running on networks.
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Has anyone else here tried this technique? It is an interesting strategy.
 
Before I send any traffic, I always use a proxy to fill out a lead myself with the sid "test". If it requires a phone number, I put in a Google Voice number that I won't pick up. If the lead counts, I will tell my AM to remove the lead and they will think I am this super honest person. Sometimes though, the lead won't count but they will call. That's how I know they are trying to dick me over.
 
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