Who Else is Getting REAL Tired of the US Gov't?

That would be more accurate if we were still on the gold standard. They can print up as much as they want and toss whatever they want onto the national debt. Of course that can raise inflation and cause other problems.
No, by DEFINITION that causes inflation. Money, measured in value, not nominal terms, spent by the government must be equally stolen from someone else. Period. No matter how they make it. UNLESS the way they make it is the same way businesses cause deflation (that is, creating value).

Period. No questions asked. By definition one dollar printed = one dollar lost in inflation.
 


If I took away your money, your memory, and everything else you had going for you and put you in a position where you then had arrogant people like yourself saying you suck at life. You would immediately pull yourself together from nothing and start doing something to become independent, without even knowing where to start after a life of ignorance?

Right...

Your point is stupid. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. Are you seriously saying his and everyone else's money and memory is what makes him not pathetic?

So drug addicts / homeless people, particularly those who are able bodied (when it comes to children, elderly and the disabled, ignore me, I don't know what I'm talking about), simply don't have the money to make money, or the memory to not be pathetic?

Right...
 
Don't try to attribute this to anything other than what it is; we're paying for other people's health insurance.
As opposed to the current system where hospitals treat those without insurance, and it gets passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher costs. Frankly, getting some basic preventative care in for those without insurance could potentially lead to lower costs due to lower hospitalization rates since issues would be diagnosed or cured earlier in the process. And seeing a doctor is much cheaper than being hospitalized.

Really, insurance to begin with is a bit of a socialist scheme - If you're perfectly healthy and live a healthy lifestyle, your insurance premiums end up going to pay for some obese person's heart surgery (perhaps multiple times over) because they love McDonalds and hate exercise. Let's just abolish the system! Down with socialism!
 
But anyway, back to a point I made before. Paul - How in the hell are you paying 50% tax now? You do know the tax system is a progressive tax system, right?
 
Health insurance reform is inevitable - whether you support it or not because the current "system" cannot be sustained. The rate of increase that medical services consume is growing exponentially, and is pressuring our economy downward. This leaves us less and less able to fund other things, and less competitive with other nations that have a real, tangible system of cost control and universal coverage.

This runaway inflation amounts to a death spiral of our economy unless we tame the beast, and the best way to do it is to cover everyone. That way, nobody mooches off the system, and there's peace of mind if you get sick or hurt. In a civilized country, everybody pitches in for the greater good. If one day you can't work because you're sick, at least you'll know the coverage will be there, and you won't lose everything on account of your illness.
Before you talk about inflation, please learn what inflation is. Inflation is the reduction in the value of your money, not the increase in the cost of health care. Unless less is being produced, or more money is being produced, inflation isn't happening.

Coincidentally, government intervention, by definition, causes less to be produced, and usually more money to be produced.
 
Spoken like a true Socialist. Screw the greater good. The greater good is a fallacy based on the notion everyone will pull their own weight but the truth of it is there will be loser deadbeats that leach off the system thus creating a disincentive to produce by the ones who do the work.

Talk about a downward spiral.
What if you personally got sick and couldn't work and pay those high insurance premiums that already supplement other people who don't pay? Should we let you croak, then roll you into the field to fertilize the tomatoes? Why not, each man for himself. You can't pay, screw you.

Anybody can lose their coverage, and it's absolute denial to say you're invincible and misfortune can't touch you. Call it socialism if you like, in fact, a mixture of socialism and capitalism is already a reality of the system.
 
Really, insurance to begin with is a bit of a socialist scheme - If you're perfectly healthy and live a healthy lifestyle, your insurance premiums end up going to pay for some obese person's heart surgery (perhaps multiple times over) because they love McDonalds and hate exercise. Let's just abolish the system! Down with socialism!
Insurance run by a private company is voluntary. Left wing government is not. That is a very, very serious difference.

People CAN get together and pay for each other's healthcare. Just don't tell me I have to. That's theft.
 
I was just speaking in terms of what it actually would be, not in the end what I literally will pay. Because while it's easy to slide around and shift income and ultimately evade a tax that high, it's still the bar the government sets and expects you to pay. It's more principle than anything, although what I actually end up paying is absurd anyway.

"The non-partisan think-tank calculated the average local tax rate in New York State at 1.7 percent, and combined it with the 8.97 percent that high-bracket state taxpayers will shell out in 2011, when the health care plan is set to take effect. Tack on the 39.6 percent federal tax rate, 2.9 percent for Medicare and 5.4 percent for the health care "surtax," and the figure is 56.92 percent for the Empire State."

DEMOCRATS HEALTH CARE PLAN FUNDING MAY TAX NEW YORK WEALTHY 57% - New York Post

But anyway, back to a point I made before. Paul - How in the hell are you paying 50% tax now? You do know the tax system is a progressive tax system, right?
 
57% is insane, but if you include sales taxes and all the other hidden taxes I bet its close to what I pay in Canada (for subpar health care, a political system that is lead by two clones and a monkey who knows he'll never be elected and government that still doesn't work)
 
"We" is us, paying for our own health insurance. Spread the risk and it comes out cheaper.
I already have health insurance. I like my health insurance. So don't put me in that boat.
We are covering more people. Those people aren't paying. That means someone(me) has to pay for them.
Even the Congressional Budget committee has come back and said it's too expensive; essentially that we wouldn't be saving money.
Your post is an example of the inertia that got us here, and why we spend far more for far less in this country. Right, let's not mess with the system because it's real REAL good.
No, by all means mess with the system. But they're barking up the wrong tree for it. If you really want to decrease costs try this on for size:
-Pass a law that increases the insurance companies liability for recissions; essentially make it so they have to find any pre-existing conditions in the first 6 months of coverage. After that, it's on them.

-Open up competition by letting people get insurance in states other than the one they currently reside in.

-Set up a government operated backend for charging insurance providers. The companies have the option to get on a big backend list of providers that the hospitals can charge their insurance through. This makes it easier for new insurance companies to enter into the market(rather than negotiating with individual hospitals, it's a "one stop shop" to get accepted all over the country). This also means if I'm getting bent over by Blue Cross Michigan, I can easily switch to a provider in Tennesee or whatever and still have coverage in the same places.

-(this one is optional) Set up a law that forces United States based pharma companies to export drugs to other 1st world countries at the same rate they'd sell them at in the states. One of the reasons care is so much more expensive here is because we're subsidizing the research the rest of the world doesn't pay for.
The current pharma companies are too heavily invested in US politics to back out of the states.


Edit: All that said, you still didn't make a case for inflation at all. I assume you're abandoning that point?
Re-Edit: Responding to your other post.
As opposed to the current system where hospitals treat those without insurance, and it gets passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher costs. Frankly, getting some basic preventative care in for those without insurance could potentially lead to lower costs due to lower hospitalization rates since issues would be diagnosed or cured earlier in the process. And seeing a doctor is much cheaper than being hospitalized.
Yeah but the next time the country flips out due to some random swine/avian flu, or SARS, you know damn well we're going to end up paying to vaccinate the whole fucking country for something that likely wouldn't have done shit. After all, it's "preventative", amirite?
Really, insurance to begin with is a bit of a socialist scheme - If you're perfectly healthy and live a healthy lifestyle, your insurance premiums end up going to pay for some obese person's heart surgery (perhaps multiple times over) because they love McDonalds and hate exercise. Let's just abolish the system! Down with socialism!
It's not a socialist scheme. Risk distribution is not socialist as long as private enterprise is involved. Competition is good.
Beyond that, I don't want the government to have any vested interest in what I do to my own fucking body. One of the big smoking/marijuana/drinking arguments is that it's not their business. Those arguments all go bye-bye the minute a public plan becomes reality.
 
"-Set up a government operated backend for charging insurance providers. The companies have the option to get on a big backend list of providers that the hospitals can charge their insurance through. This makes it easier for new insurance companies to enter into the market(rather than negotiating with individual hospitals, it's a "one stop shop" to get accepted all over the country). This also means if I'm getting bent over by Blue Cross Michigan, I can easily switch to a provider in Tennesee or whatever and still have coverage in the same places."
I don't know why the private market can't do that if it were efficient, (clearly its neither efficient nor is it going to do that) but, that's a great idea compared to these hackjob trillion dollar solutions.
 
-Pass a law that increases the insurance companies liability for recissions; essentially make it so they have to find any pre-existing conditions in the first 6 months of coverage. After that, it's on them.
How about disallowing recissions entirely? What if you had cancer, or some other awful, chronic disease, and you went to your insurance company and told them of it very honestly and got your coverage with qualifiers? So sorry, so sad, we can't cover your scary disease, Mr. xmcp123. So you'd have to pony up the insurance fee, in addition to anything related to the cancer which isn't covered. And if it makes you bankrupt and homeless, that's free enterprise. The insurance company shouldn't have to cover that, it's bad for business and the government allows it. That's fair, no?
Edit: All that said, you still didn't make a case for inflation at all. I assume you're abandoning that point?
I didn't abandon the point at all; in fact, it speaks for itself. Health insurance costs are like a black hole sucking away the nation's wealth. Look at your premium; I don't have to argue the point.

I can't stay in this thread because I have to go to work and pay for things. Rant on, wingnuts.
 
stmadeveloper - The plan isn't "government run healthcare". They're not getting rid of private insurance companies and making everyone go into a single-payer healthcare system. What most people don't realize right now is that there are a lot of aspects to the current health care reform legislation being proposed by the President, and that of Congress. Health care reform in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia sums up a good number of them.


I'm aware - I was talking out my ass there (fully admit it). I guess my point comes down to that while I believe in gov. getting the heck out of our lives in general I would have no problem with "medicaid" for everyone with tax increases as long as there was an option for me to "up" my level of care.

The tax increases would be totally offset by the no longer paying for health care. In fact it would probably improve our economy and business climate overall.

We pay for the 'non-insured' folks anyway.

But the congress, senate, and president will screw this up in some fashion with something that hurts all business, folks at all income levels, hurts our economy, our future, and our liberty.

I believe that was the point of the original poster on this thread :)
 
"The non-partisan think-tank calculated the average local tax rate in New York State at 1.7 percent, and combined it with the 8.97 percent that high-bracket state taxpayers will shell out in 2011, when the health care plan is set to take effect. Tack on the 39.6 percent federal tax rate, 2.9 percent for Medicare and 5.4 percent for the health care "surtax," and the figure is 56.92 percent for the Empire State."

DEMOCRATS HEALTH CARE PLAN FUNDING MAY TAX NEW YORK WEALTHY 57% - New York Post
I'm still convinced that that's not taking the progressive tax into account. Per the calculator at Tax Brackets (Federal Income Tax Rates) 2000 through 2009 , if you're single and are making $1 million per year, you're in the 35% federal tax bracket, but your total federal tax % is 32.77% based on the progression. If your taxable income is $500k, it's down to 30.54%, $300k is 28.05% (33% bracket), $250k is 27.06%, and $100k is 21.72% (28% bracket).

Also, if you're in the highest tax bracket, most likely most of your earnings are not subject to FICA, since those max out at taxing at most the first $100k or so of earnings.
 
There is a good book called Mobs, Messiahs, and Markets: Surviving the Public Spectacle in Finance and Politics. It talks about all the "world improvers" trying to make "change". They ALL ended up creating misery.

Studying history you can learn several things:

- People do not learn from history (yet, maybe tech will change that)
- Politicians are 99% likely to not be qualified for the power they will have
- People that have "missions" to improve things usually always cause more harm then good.
- When people are taxed over 51% of their income revolts start to become plausible.
- ALL FIAT CURRENCIES EVENTUALLY BECOME WORTHLESS.
- The US dollar was removed from the gold standard completely in 1971 and became a fiat currency.
- You can not fool the world for ever.
- All the "War on ______" are fake, and just creative a black hole that sucks wealth from the people to fight it.
- Centralized management of the economy will always fail because one human or a small group of humans can not possibly understand the mechanics of billions of people making decisions every millisecond.
- The USA's standard of living will either slowly decline or sharply decline as the USD eventually becomes worth less.
- Inflation will eventually wipe out senior citizens/fixed income people and they will be totally Dependant on government and/or have to keep working.
- nationalized health care will (depending on the final bill) will most likely fuck things up more. Has anyone actually looked into the history of how we got to this point? When you goto the doctor and have health insurance. Do you ask what things cost? Wouldn't you love to be able to run a restaurant and show people the menu without prices? ;-)
- With socialism you eventually run out of other peoples money - Margaret thatcher
- Politicians, police, etc.. anyone with power will eventually become more corrupt because of inflation, unjust laws. The people follow the governments example.
- I could write many more words of wisdom but don't feel like it.


Someone just told me about this book good post!!

I work in health care and I'm worried about this bill and whats in it!
 
This thread needs this! :xmas-smiley-016:

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